Joe Rogan Experience #996 – Dr. Andy Galpin

yes and we're live what's up man how are you fantastic thanks for doing this appreciate it appreciate you let me come up so want to tell people what you do I am a muscle physiologist so I'm a PhD in human bio energetics and I'm the director for the Center for sport performance which all that basically means I study muscle physiology why it grows shrinks repairs dies and all that crap now when you're you're dealing with athletes and you didn't look like state-of-the-art performance how much does that stuff change like year year like protocols like what people used to think was the way to go what's the new way to go well if you take a look or if you examine just the idea of science in general it's the understanding that we're wrong that totally what science is if we knew what the answer was we wouldn't look into it like what's the point of doing a study if we know the answer right so by definition we're always evolving in that sense but it's quite funny how the central tenants are really not that different you take nutrition you take training the vast majority of those things are similar to what they were twenty thirty eighty a hundred years ago so the bulk of it what matters for the bulk of athletes is fairly standard what where differs is the last few percentage points it's getting us that last ten percent gains or being very specific so you on a personal level need this little bit of difference and then you need this tiny bit of difference but the bulk of it really is not that different well when you're watching MMA fighters in particular you see so many different methods means so many different ways to approach things and I never know who's right you know it really depends upon who's successful and then you go well that guy obviously has it down yeah that's a major fallacy called the fallacy of Authority so our appeal to Authority which is somebody really good did it or somebody who coaches somebody really good they did it right or a lot of people did it all three of those are examples of major logical fallacies right to break down on Aristotle's reasoning that's not what we do now they can help us with some ideas of where to go but that's a really bad approach so we have to understand like what works for somebody at a very high level is not necessarily going to work for the bulk of people and particular if like the great example is Schwarzenegger so when he came out in with his book of the encyclopedia of bodybuilding everyone was like fantastic I'll go do those workouts what you're not Arnold and it you should be doing what Arnold did when he was at your stage mmm not at his stage well also he's doing a bucket of steroids well that too right that's a big factor like if especially back in those days they didn't come clean about that stuff No so guys are like hey I call my biceps are ripping off the bone right you know or how come it's not working for me yeah yeah so so all that is is really important to understand with the context of recovery the nutrition has all the other stresses that are eliminated from his life all of that change is what's gonna work or not work for you now there's a bunch of different ways of approaching things like I've always been fascinated by the Marva Marinovich method and now Nick curse on takes that method as well and their idea is that strength and conditioning is especially when the fighters in camp is more important than anything more important even in skill work right because you already know how to fight so the strength and conditioning should take precedent get all that done too so get your body to the point where you have the most horsepower the biggest gas tank the best tires you know the best handling and then you already know how to fight so just approach it that way yeah so the the guy that actually trained Marv Michael yes this is a fullerton guy oh it's Cal State Fullerton so he was the the cyclist yes yeah that's his name yeah why ESS Russian name uh he's awesome he's like 85 now or something and if you want to get massively entertained by somebody like he's a good one yeah because he's just very opinionated but nonetheless uh yeah that is I think an important one if you look at Joel Jameson a friend of mine who trains Demetrius Johnson like all those guys they have very different approaches and I don't I think the massive fallacies actually goes back to your original question is thinking that there is one single answer that's the problem right whether we're talking training nutrition recovery ice with any of these modalities the the major reason we have so much internet fighting between experts and why it makes it so difficult for so many people to figure out like well what's the right answer is because searching for a right answer is the problem to begin with we're having the wrong conversation with all of this crap it's not the right place to go so those are two very different approaches for Demetrius they reduce a lot of the strength conditioning they do during camp because they want to get very good with the train with the fighting so all that stuff is gone so Joel believes in training as much as we can prior to camp and then in camp it's time to get better at fighting hmm someone like Nick is apparently has the opposite approach yeah I don't think that either one of them is more or letter less effective than the other it really comes down to the combination of coaches as well as the athlete so some athletes in them and you could attest to this and I've seen this a bunch of times if they're two days out three days out a week out some of them get really anxious if they don't get to practice this skill like I want to be really sharp with my combinations I want to be really good with my transitions etc and if you take that away from them they get very anxious and they don't like it and so you almost have to do is program it based on this combination of physiology and psychology and that's a bit outside of my realm but this is what makes coaching so complicated is saying okay well you know what for you athlete one you're gonna do the opposite approach athlete two you're gonna be doing the other approach because you just don't feel as good you're not as confident you're not filming the smoothin and more than anything when they walk down to that cage or particularly two or three days before they have to feel amazing yeah you have to have that combination yeah it is weird that like there is no answer no you know like there was one like a Mark Hunt is gonna have a completely different set of requirements than you know Derrick Lewis or Mighty Mouse Johnson or anybody it's so like everybody's got different needs and and everybody's coming to the table with a different set of skills and a different set of problems especially when you look at experience too so what worked for you when your second fight when you were 20 is maybe not the same approach you have to take when you're 30 hmm I just I just got back from New York I was in the last three days and I was with one of my guys Dennis Bermudez and we had this conversation and when I first started working with him we had to take a very different approach the week of and especially even you know the hour before the fight because the way that he got ramped up for a fight is very different than some other people that I've worked with what we had to realize and I remember he called me right after one of his recent fights maybe or five fights ago and he's like I'm freaking out because I didn't freak out in the cage this time I was like what he's like you know I'm usually like really freaked out in the cage and this is what drives my performance but this time I was really calm and collected I saw everything and I'm nervous that I'm not nervous enough so I had to get him in with my good friend Lennie we're Somozas sports psychologist who works a lot of combat sport athletes and say okay we need to get you in a place of optimal arousal because if you're under aroused that's a problem but if you're over aroused that's a problem as well so we had to change the tactics a little bit between everything from his walk down to the week of before the cueing the things that we say to him to make sure he's in an optimal state every other out that he worked like all those approaches are completely different we can't have the same thing how do you train a guy to do is walk down oh there's a lot we can do really oh yeah and I'm not sports psychologist sole all right go to why do you know what they do absolutely everything from breathing drills right to the the cueing the words you use so for example in the back if you're a Dennis Bermudez five years ago you know Ryan Parsons would have to say like real vile horrible shit like rip his fucking head off I want you to bring it back in a plate like murder him rip him to shreds that works for some guys for Dennis at that point at that point not anymore right now it's a little bit different approach and Ryan could tell you the details of what he does now but some guys like you tell some other people that backstage you're gonna be like what huh like don't don't say that just like right tell me what to focus on remind me my cues in my timing and so the guys that are too ramped up their very specific breathing drills for example we can have them do as they're walking down the cage as they're in the cage especially if they're the first one down or the second one down so they're first down sometimes that's a 10-minute delay between when they're standing in the cage and when they actually start throwing right if you're not taking advantage of that time or if that time is getting taken advantage of you that can have a real problem with your energy and especially if you get a guy who's really savvy like a connor or a John Jones who takes their time coming down and they mess with you they do different things on the way down that really influences what's going on with the guy in the cage especially if they're less experienced or maybe touch the underdog or other things like that so that can all be be messed with now a guy like Dennis Bermudez is a good example right you were you're working with him he's obviously a world-class fighter yeah but he always seems to fall just short on these big fights yeah there's you know this is where it's outside of my expertise I'm a muscle physiologist not a psychologist right but with his last performance so there's against Darren Elkins yeah who was a really tough guy very awkward really just blood and guts type of fighter but that was a good matchup for a very good fight good matchup skill wise it should on paper something a good match should have favored Dennis in a lot of races well there's no way to beat around that I feel like two things are happening in that fight one I feel like Darren Elkins is getting better for sure and he was very super motivated and energized by his performance over Mirsad BEC dick which is an amazing comeback that's incredible crazy yeah so but a lot of people felt like he was the favorite that Dennis was the favorite going into that fight yeah on paper clearly he was from a lot of vantage points but it's really difficult you know without telling too much to Dennis a story for him it was it's quite funny what happens with the gameplan sometimes and what happens when they get in there even with the seasoned guy like Dennis and I don't know if a part of that was because it was in New York and Dennis's hometown or if that was because of Pat who was good friend fought right before and want to really you know crazy fight in the fight before if he saw that you just don't know what goes in and then you know sometimes like in the middle of a fight you're like the fights over and I don't even know why we did that I could just we got to this weird rhythm thing and we started doing this and that was I don't know what happened and and act the rhythm can kind of take over the fight and Darren fought an amazing fight he did exactly what he needed to do but it was just the from my perspective as a scientist one I try to stay away from those things that's not my job but it's it's fun and this is what makes it exciting for me is why I work with these folks is because you can have the perfect camp physically and sometimes you win sometimes you lose and so then you go back the drawing board you go well do we throw everything out do we try something different what was it those it's psychological is it physical that's the thing to think likely fantastic well what was the physical game plan like you planned on you must have planned on knowing how Darren fights a super high pay in-your-face type of fight yeah that that part's not a problem for Dennis he doesn't really get tired and the vast majorities fights I mean looked a little bit like he was getting tired in this fight uh again he can say that but from the feedback and from what we saw like he was like no he just maybe had a hard time focusing honestly I didn't have and asked him very specifically what was going on there I kind of gave them a few weeks to kind of get through that stuff when we start going back art let's watch a tape let's go through it like right through so I want to be careful not offending him or or is direct cards like that but yeah I mean from my vantage it was like this was not this is not what we were looking for he should have just been more active particularly in the second round which is what really got him and he saw in the third round once he kind of got into it Dennis in our eyes lease was pretty dominated that round mm-hmm or was at least clearly ahead yeah we're one in two were not so good for him but yeah I just potentially a focus potentially a lot of things he wasn't nothing physically that happened him in the fight that he was he like oh I we didn't prepare for this we think was gonna happen this is throwing me off he was just like I just I just didn't go in the second round so it's a weird job you have because you're kind of relying on someone else to pull the trigger you're relying on someone else to make the moves yeah and you could train them all you want and you can get him in incredible shape but then you know ready go they're on autopilot they're they're doing their own thing especially me because I'm not the guy who's in practice all day every day with them right like I'm not the Nickerson I'm not seeing them twelve hours a week right I'm out there I'm just like like Dennis I won't even see all camp sometimes because he's in New York and I'm in and in LA and so it's like so what do you do you give them a protocol do you give them a schedule so my role depending on which fighter I'm with is completely different so sometimes it's one phone call the beginning of camp sometimes it's just like hey this came up what do you think we should do how do we go about this sometimes it's a text three times a day every day for the whole camp sometimes those phone calls I get I try to do like this is not my full-time job like my full-time job is to research muscle physiology I work with MMA fighters in combat sport athletes is because I love it really so it's just almost like a side job side hobby yeah yeah if you want to think of it that way because you know I have my full-time living I've got multiple labs to run like this is what I do is publish research Brian I take biopsies of people i isolate hundreds tens of thousands of muscle fibers at this point in my life and when I can help if I think I can I will but I try not to I don't work with general public I'm our lab is different opener this way most labs that do the type of muscle research we do are focused on disease prevention or treatment right so how do we fight cancer how do we get people back I'm one of the few that actually do this on the other end of the spectrum which is well let's study optimization like how do we thrive how do we not just get to 80 years old but how do we kick ass at 80 years old and becoming from the performance background that I have a my athletic background it does make so much sense I didn't come from martial arts background at all like I didn't do anything until much later in life but I once I started paying attention to MMA I was like there's something energetically physiologically far different about the demands of this sport and it's really exciting and it's a really complex problem to solve so I just started helping out chipping in and then once you get help a couple of people and they're like this is fantastic it cetera kind of the ball gets rolling so right now basically what I do is think of it like concierge service if you will like I don't I'm not like you can't email me for training program like I don't have an online website you can buy stuff from right I'm here like if somebody's like hey I know a friend who could really need this or something maybe so do you coach people for diet as well do you go through everything with them yep don't any what they need and and how do you like how do you decide like what a person needs so I could say if you know Darren Elkins came to you then he might be very different than Jon Jones like how do you how do you decide what a person needs so it depends on if they're local or not blood work is the easy one but the vast majority of what I do is a lot of conversation so I spend a lot of time on phone calls and Skype with them saying face could walk me through what have you done where you want how do you think I can help the number one thing I do then is say okay do you have who else on your team does this who's helping you let's get on a call with them not so that I can tell them what to do but just let me know what what your world is like and then I see if I can add some advice people try this I can help you track things I can tell you with my experience about I've seen this happened before or I know someone that's happening before this is what happened with the best example was do you remember last summer at the Rio Olympics when that Helen marilla's won the gold medal the first American ever female to win gold and wrestling no I wasn't paying attention Oh Joe go read the article in Sports Illustrated that she wrote afterwards she beat you no I think you Sheeta was her name but she was a three-time defending gold medalist and a 15 time straight World title it was just like Rulon Gardner when he beat her Ellen but the female version so Helen went down there it was crazy he was down two to one with like 30 seconds to go and semifinals came back and won she was down a point he or she in the finals ends up ends up upsetting her first American to ever win gold well I worked with Helen for about a year on straight nutrition because she had to cut a whole bunch of extra weight for the first time and the whole wrestling community was like you'll never get down to 53 kilos like don't do it you have to go up because what happened was resting is this really weird thing where World Championships is a different weight classes than the Olympics so she was a world champion at 55 kilos and either had to go up to 58 kilos for the Olympics which had a three-time defending gold medalist in a 15 time straight world champion or go down to 53 kilos did to rustle somebody who also had that 15 times dirt world title so pounds wise it's like six pounds roughly it's not a big deal but when you're already like scraping to get there right and so she had to make the decision to go up or go down and what happened was she had a nutritionist Eric revela who you may know Eric he works at Barnett he's been around Josh big huge dude okay wrestler but Eric was for nutritionists and Eric reached out to me because he's write down where we're at and Helens down here and he was basically like I know what I'm doing obviously but like let's get as big a team as possible to make the right decisions as possible so that's how I like to work so when a new person reaches out to me I go like well who else you have on board don't fire them I don't want anybody get fired let's all put our heads together because with MMA specifically they're not making any income Olympic wrestlers are the same thing she makes like 15 grand a year or something like she's poor so it's what you have to understand when you're coaching them like it's not team dr. Andy like it's team Helen and all of us have to be focused on her and it doesn't matter if anyone knows what I do with her or not or anybody I don't care if you get the credit another nutritionist gets the credit if you want to actually help these professional athletes you have to let your ego go completely out the door and say why throw people out let's take every information I have about everything you've ever done and come together with solutions and if somebody else has an idea that you don't like that's up to you to figure out and give it to the athlete okay so would you find out with her like what was the what was the issue and how'd you get her to lose the extra so Alex it was like a year of issues here yeah I mean like every day every week every month something else came up so it was like we tackle this problem and then we had another problem iron was a huge one for her iron essen deficiency and we had she was basically almost flatlined on her iron worked anemic mm-hmm and we had to come in and go okay well we're gonna add this but she was also traveling to Mongolia she was going internationally so she kept getting sick Mongolia yeah for tournaments cuz she had to qualify the spot damn and she's cutting she's imagine wrestling a Mongolian chick it's terrifying when you're at world champions not that terrifying they're hardcore though yeah shit out of me so she we had to put her on we had to basically play a game of saying if we give you the things that keep you from not being sick that's also the stuff that actually harms iron absorption keep you to things like vitamin C for vitamin C to keep you from getting sick right so that can help you talking about while she's dehydrating so we're saying anytime so if you're gonna go travel internationally for a long time you can take a big bowls of vitamin C and it may help you from getting sick from getting cold really does that really affect it better than probiotics do well probiotics we're on that – mm-hmm but the point was if you're gonna go on like a two-week thing to Eastern Europe I'm gonna give you every advantage possible that not probably get a cold right but when wouldn't you do that on a regular basis like why would you accentuate the diet traveling trip and give it some stuff that I mean wouldn't you want that boost everywhere so the probiotics are basically a no-brainer all the time but I mean even though I don't see everything else yeah but you have to be careful because any time you go with the vitamin specifically you have potential toxicity in vitamin C absolutely really yeah what what's the toxicity rate of vitamin C it's not gonna actually well put it this way at generally any time you're getting a vitamin from a food source you're probably nowhere near toxicity level so natural consumption of food you're not going to be in a problem you start taking three five six grams of vitamin C at a time you're potentially going to have problems and it's a whole host and what makes it really complicated is there's interaction with other vitamins and minerals so the iron for example if you give them with vitamin C it's gonna help absorption but zinc is gonna do the opposite and so if you do these other combinations you're gonna potentially have problems or you're potentially safe and so you say the opposite what does that mean do you mean zinc doesn't help vitamin C absorption or doesn't help iron absorption iron so zinc actually messes up your iron absorption anytime you have an avid vitamin or mineral you have potential either Co absorption or you have confliction so you're gonna you know cut things off how does Inc conflict with the iron I don't know the chemistry behind it that's weird yeah do you have a lot of that I mean you look up basically vitamin A vitamin D vitamin K magnesium vitamin K Pabon absorption so you have to make sure that it let's say if you're eating one at breakfast eat another one it launches at how well if you get it from food you're basically safe right like we don't really this is stuff we don't worry about even if you supplement like during your lunch or during your breakfast yeah this is what the general answer is don't supplement with vitamins and minerals unless you have a very specific reason right like and we did that for the vast majority camp but she was continually getting sick because of a variety of reasons some that I probably you know shouldn't say but so we're like okay fine we addressed that and then it was like okay now you're super anemic so let's get away from that but what we did basically is get iron back to a decent level as soon as possible and then go off of everything go right back to food how are you feeling and that one her she was so low on iron as soon as we got her a decent level like within days it was just like tears of joy of like I feel so much better I'm not large and not sleeping all the time but it was continual the hard part with her was getting her down and then you would be shocked what the food was like in Rio like what they do oh yeah at the Olympics oh my god like they told them you'd have ABCD in get down there and she called me the first day and she's like they have nothing we've got McDonald's we've got popcorn and cookies like there's nothing down here Wow she's like fire limpet Oh horrible I mean the basketball players probably had something but like she's a wrestler she didn't have anything so they they had better food for the more prominent sports probably probably because they probably brought their own chefs yeah okay all right so she's dealing with the team and then she had to be shipped out of Rio to some other city two hours away or an hour away or something and she's like there's no grocery store here I can't even walk to the store to get any anything decent so we had real problems she was about to do opening ceremonies and we had a plan you know for a food like basically we're going hour by hour how do you feel like where we at these types of things and she wanted to opening ceremonies and she called me she's like I want to do opening ceremonies like fine cool no problem this is what I want you to eat and whatever it was and we'll do next and she's like I'm right next to Michael Phelps I'm in the front like I don't want to get out of line I don't go back out and eat cuz I don't lose my spot next to Phelps in the front I'm like okay fine well she is supposed to eat whatever vegetable and food and fat source we had I don't remember but she's like all they have is cookies at popcorn he's like I guess is just like starve and we actually that was one time we didn't do we didn't want to do that because she was at a problem where she was so calorically underserved for so long she or her body would crash quite often so we had to keep her nutrients really really really high her vitamins and minerals to keep her at a low calorie count but her body not freaking out so she was like what do i do not eat and we had to actually go to the popcorn because the good fat and there that the butter that I had to keep her from not feeling terrible surprise did good for popcorn for nutrition at the Olympics and she was there for like six hours they're supposed to be there for like an hour and go in just it was a shit show that's a mess now what about other athletes like I mean forget about the specific requirements if someone has to lose a ton of weight yeah now when you when you deal with most athletes like what what what kind of like strength and conditioning protocols do you have the mom what kind of recovery protocols like you're using cryotherapy or sauna like what kind of stuff you're using so all that is again I think the problem is thinking that there is one answer there I don't have any athletes that I'm like this is what we do hey this is our method this is that I think it's generally a terrible approach it's combination of where that who are they with what are they done what's their past history what do they like are they not like what do we really need to get so I try to identify what's compromising their performance let's pick the best solution for that issue so you show up and you're like your problem is agility your footwork you're just too slow on your feet well we're gonna have a different approach your training then when someone says you're getting out strenght you're getting out strength here like someone's pushing around too much I don't need to rebuild your feet I don't need to improve your maximal speed because you're already the fastest in the division maybe your strength is your issue so do you do a bunch of tests on them when they come to you and then you tried it like what kind of test you do so we have an entire Center for sport performance we've got six or eight Laboratories in it with a whole host of equipment to do the thing we put the mask on them make them run field – max yeah yeah if we need does that do so we can actually measure the amount of oxygen and carbon dioxide coming in and out of the body which allows us to get a number called the vo2 max which is the maximum amount of oxygen that you bring in and exhale so it tells us basically your your maximal cardiovascular capacity and it's pseudo important for MMA so the average person's like at 4045 just to give you some context that number anyone passed about 60 if you continue to go up it's not gonna really make you fight any better so that's one of the things that we did we found doing all the research on that MMA folks is if I take Horn of diminishing return being around 60 so if you show up and you're a Jake Ellenberger and you're at 52 and I can get you to 58 then that's gonna help your performance a lot but when you show up in your pack Cummins and you're 66 and I get you to 69 that's not gonna make you fight any better right that's not your problem what makes you lose in a fight is other things that you need to spend that precious training time on so when you get a guy or a girl and you have them in your studio and you start work like what's like the first thing you do with them so it would honestly the first thing would be well what did the manager or why do they reach out to me because usually when they come to me it's problem fixing they don't come to me when like hey I've won seven fights and I feel fantastic right usually it's this is going on I'm losing because of this reason that's gotta be frustrating though because you when someone's losing the problem is like that's slippery slope it's hard to catch yourself oh yeah yeah well it's it's the game to of like sometimes they just want another answer which is not like you just not good enough right right I'm not telling that right okay so we'll all watch the fights of course talk to their team this so I'll give you a specific ample example so they come to me and go hey like I don't think we're fast enough on the feet this is a problem okay well we've got force plates that are the really really sensitive measurement equipment built into the ground and we can have them do a variety of jumping tests moving test lifting tests force plates how does it work so it's a really expensive scale basically built into the ground and how big is it they're as big as your laptop or as big as the table oh so it's fairly small let's understand Oh as big as the whole table yeah they can't okay not ours but we have one that's maybe the size of I don't know small coffee table yeah there's two of them back to back okay so we can do your right foot on one your left foot another one so we can test everything from not only your force which is like if I'm if I measured your maximum deadlift I would know how strong your back isn't your hamstrings your glutes but how do you produce that force as the big key so a good example is years ago we had some fighters come in and one of them was clearly not fast enough but he wouldn't believe it so he was strong but it took him a long time to produce that force so to give you a number let's say you could do you could produce a hundred Newton's of force right just making the number up and I produce 200 Newton's of force but if it took you one second to get there and it took me a hundred seconds or a half a second to get there in an MMA fight I don't have one second right so you don't have a hundred Newton's of usable force in your sport know that what's interesting you just said he didn't believe it mm-hmm so he didn't think he was slow no he thought the problems were other things what do you think the problems were who knows coaching like I'm not getting the right thing stride you know they had my walkout song wrong just like so you told them you're slow dude that was my thing I'm like I don't think so his coaching staff was like we think this is a problem well let's put them on the force plate and let's see not only how much force you produce because his strength numbers were high squatted a lie deadlift it a lot but the time it took him to produce that force what's called the rate of forced development his peak velocity the time it took him to get to that velocity all that when I compared him to the other athletes and NFL players and stuff was just like off-the-charts bad so it what exercise do you do to measure that so now that's a great example so when we have two individual athletes they come in so let's say one is the opposite so one of them is really really really good at producing fast quickly and the other one takes a long time so the one that doesn't produce fast they're forced very quick we would put them on a drill where we say okay the goal of your training is to maximize how quickly you produce force I don't care how heavy you get but this is a reactive strength thing this is a speed thing so you're gonna do maybe a little bit lighter squats but you're gonna explode you're gonna transition out of the bottom you're gonna bounce you're gonna use momentum you get a swing you're gonna generate fast as possible you're not going to go to maximal strength the other guy we get the opposite we would take the speed advantage away from him or her and say you need to be able to produce more strength without taking advantage of the speed and it's basically comes down to using the muscle for force or the connective tissue for force and that's really what we can tease out now how much of speed and mathletics formance is genetic and how much of it is what you've been doing and how much can you improve yeah so that's a fact we actually just completed a really cool study on monozygous twins so monozygous twins means you're the exact same DNA so it's sperm went in implanted two implanted one egg the egg split and you became identical right and so we found two twins that were the exact same DNA yeah but one of them had been doing like marathons and and nuran stuff for 35 years the other hadn't done anything in 35 years so we had this exact question how that's crazy identical DNA one variable different which is well let's make a huge variable though one is a super endurance athlete in the insulin the other one's a lazy bitch yeah something like that or maybe studies a lot yeah something uh I think it was a truck driver Wow it's so weird that's see that's unusual isn't it like the don't extremely unusual these are kind of share similar interests if not if their difference theirs their difference is mild yeah I kind of do this and you do love it more but so what are the differences in their body test so we tested them for everything cardiovascular stuff vo2 max strength all these same tests that we do with EMM fighters muscle biopsies fiber type how much fast how much slow twitch all the ones in between what we found was of course the endurance athlete had higher vo2 max like no-brainer you you you run a hundred miles a week for 30 years and your brother doesn't do anything you're gonna have a better cardiovascular system blood pressure cholesterol all that crap better than that trained athlete but the strength did not favor the athlete the muscle quality didn't favor the athlete the total amount of muscle didn't favor the athlete the speed didn't favor the athlete really no and wanting a craziest part is the fiber type the trained athlete and his quad was 90% slow-twitch 10% fast which the untrained was 40% slow twitch about 30% fast twitch then about 30% of some of the hybrids inventory does that make sense to you because the guy was just constantly running their next work now what that's really weird that the muscle quality it didn't favor the athlete I think what it tell I mean what do you mean by muscle quality when you're saying this so yeah that's a good question you can take an ultrasound and you take an image of the muscle and it looks at it like a combination of how much you manage your muscular fat there is with how much total muscle mass there is in the size and a bunch of different things so you get this rough idea of quality has enough favorite guy who's exercising constantly well you have to be careful it's only 1 sub 2 so we don't know but the one implication could be that yes endurance running and cycling is great for you there's a clear health advantage to that but if that's all you do for 30 years that's probably not enough to save the muscle capacity we know things that are that are actually going to predict mortality vo2 max leg strength is one of the most significant predictors of how long you live leg strength absolute how weird well sort of tom platt should live forever Yeah right some of these guys at squat 900 now obviously there's diminishing returns right about 400 and I take you to 450 you're not living a day longer right but think about it this way what's the one of the big reasons why you go from living by yourself to an assisted living home can't walk can't walk yeah can't stand up and the biggest one that they're actually starting to look at now is foot speed foot speed why why if you trip and you're about to fall and you can't put your foot out and catch yourself you have to have the foot speed to get yourself out there but these strength to stop yourself from falling that makes sense so balance and yeah well it's eccentric strength the ability to block all those forces into the ground to catch your whole body mass from falling or the wouldn't it be also your ability to manipulate your body like yoga absolutely to be able to control yourself and awkward positions and the other thing they see is huge increases in general just physical activity when you're stronger so when you're really really strong in your 70 you're much more likely to go to an extra yoga class I'll go take the dog for extra walk I'll go grab the thing but if I'm super weak and getting off the toilet is a maximum effort squat mmm I'm more likely to just keep in my chair just down the toilet Yeah right wow that's incredible that there wasn't any increase in muscle quality so that well that's also one very specific type of exercise endurance work when I was a bodybuilder who knows so that's exactly the point when you the first I think the first question you asked when we started talking was you know what what's the best type of workout what are we well or what's the the New Age stuff right mm-hmm well it goes back to I think everyone of us would agree if you want to be as healthy as possible you need to do a variety of training yeah it can't just be one modality so if you've only done yoga your whole life you're probably gonna have strength problems your foot speed problems if you've only run if you've only lifted weights if you've only exposed yourself to a few of these stimuli you're probably in a real problem yeah what we've what we've done recently actually is expanded that thinking so my friend Brian Mackenzie and I have a book that we just came out a couple weeks ago on this whole idea called unplugged where we need to expand past just lifting and running and think about what other physiological exposures do we need that are important for longevity how well do we do when we're hungry how about cold how about thirsty hot how well do we do yeah meaning performance wise meaning everything so like are you manipulating diet to make people perform better when they're cold like what are you doing every combination so if you want to be able to sustain and perform as well as we can throughout life we probably need to be able to handle a bunch of different challenges you're talking about longevity now not like necessarily athletic performance and we'll leave gladly we would use this under that umbrella but very very carefully so for example I would not recommend extensive fasting and during the middle of a six-week camp prior to UFC fight right like this is not at all were saying but this is something maybe we implement outside of camp okay so for example we have somebody who's very very carbohydrate dependent right and I have a hard time using fat as a fuel source okay well maybe in during that six week camp before you see fight I'm not messing with a tremendous man we're not going on a new diet five weeks before a fight like that's not gonna happen but maybe oh you got hurt you got you know you got a extended layoff now we start to work on that other part of your physiology so that next camp we've got more what's called metabolic flexibility so we have an ability to switch back and forth before between fuel sources right so when you're preparing someone for a very specific event exactly here you're ramping up for September 12th boom with this is we have a protocol let's get ready but then after the fights over then you might be working on very specific balancing exercises or that kind of stuff exactly so I'm of the belief that during those last few weeks you need to be very specific to what you're going to do get on weight get focus get right all these things but now if we because if we over specify for too long we have problems we have this complex as these fighting up forces called optimization versus adaptation so generally when you're optimizing you're not adapting and vice-versa how's that work so for example yeah you brought up ice earlier so we do this stuff we've done a lot of studies and published in this area so we're just learning some of the physiology behind what's going on with Pais and a lot of people ask me this like well are you for ice or proi or against it I don't understand why we have to be in one side of camp well there's some there's one guy who does who doesn't believe in ice Miesha Tate had him on our podcast he's like the anti ice guy he's like saying you shouldn't use ice but I've looked at some of the PubMed studies and some of the various things there's a lot of benefits to ice like I don't understand why anybody would be anti ice but it makes sense at all to you know it totally does and this is a deck where I'm going anti ice make sense to you or no it can Ken yeah cuz there is there's good scientific evidence to show that there are consequences of the ice as well again for injury or post-workout for so it depends on the workout context okay so we'll go to easy examples so it's not so vague and like theoretical post a workout that you try to get bigger add more muscle mass you don't want to do that right afterward bingo yeah and why well because your body has time to recover and the actual inflammation yes good for you exactly yeah it's not good for you it is the signal to grow right so people have this really weird thing where they like to personify your human eye chemicals and physiology like it doesn't know it's not good or bad like inflammation isn't great or bad like it just is where it's a chemical like it doesn't give a shit at all it doesn't know it's not conscious right so if you were to do an hop in a nice pat post a lifting session when you're trying to add muscle mass she's gonna fuck up your game probably yeah but you're supposed to wait like two hours right it's not the right number the more the better probably more from four to six okay why not why mess with it I know I read something about to that two hours is good after a hard lift well we don't have any numbers to say optimal yet like it would take a lot of studies to figure out while twos not good but three is better so every week you know we would have to titrate it out we'd have to do a study that says one group gets two hours one group gets three hours and then you have to like concentrate our effort like how much exactly effort is just kept putting verses that they don't have to be in the same training program we don't know obviously them all pre-imposed take blood marks damn you got a lot of job jobs to do there's a lot of work that's why I'm so busy and there's create involved in it too because you have to kind of like manipulate things and figure stuff out and contemplate and well that's why I'm the director or the co-director and I am the run my own lab and I've got fantastic postdocs and students that are actually the operators that execute but it seems like everything is constantly evolving and shifting and changing and it's like well I find myself honestly spending more time being in the middle of saying like let's stop all the fighting between things and let's spend time saying what was good for about this and what was bad about this now when it comes to ice what about an injury like what if somebody twists their anchor or something like that do you do you believe in icing it right away I have to defer it's not my area I'll get it all right but just to finish the example so a post lifting session maybe not great but maybe if you wait six hours or do it the next day and when we're talking about icing we're talking about ice baths that we're talking about are you talking about like a cryo chamber we don't have a tremendous amount of crowd chamber research so I'll have to say well actually I should say this with everything like this is as we know it now right but as I started the show with like if I'm wrong in a year I'm gonna be saying like actually all that was wrong yeah this is part of it so what I've read about cryo chambers is the the big thing is the anti inflammatory markers in the blood or the reduction of inflammatory markers in the blood improvements in cytokines called shock proteins things along those lines that those would be beneficial but if you're saying that we got to be careful beneficial okay so beneficial for some things but they're always gonna come at a compromise of something else okay so maybe not beneficial for a powerlifter that may be beneficial for an endurance athlete does that make sense yes but not I'm gonna make it worse oh no what so you have physiology which is what I do right and this is what science is week we biopsy we took blood we measure one marker but that doesn't take into context anything else in their life right so for example if you get a lift in and you're like oh man my elbow always things up on me after I lift and I thought I got a competition in eight weeks or a show in eight weeks this would be like a powerlifting competition or a bodybuilding competition and if you get in the ice that takes that pain away for whatever reason physiologically or an igloo zyk or anything and that allows you to train more well then we can't say that that was bad for you right or if you were like someone like they feel more accomplished when they do it they feel like they've done some work so they feel less anxiety because they got in work well then now we're playing a game here of physiology more accomplished when they got in the exercise or the ice bath in this example the ice bath oh but it would be true of anything right so setting them up for a psychological win oh that's fascinating so you factor that in you have to like we're dealing with human beings right right but it might not even be real totally but really it might but realist perceptive right right yeah I guess so for sure I mean confidence is a giant factor absolutely with combat athletes and there's some preliminary evidence that suggests perhaps an ice bath I think specifically post exercise improved my increased mitochondrial biogenesis yeah so now you say like well it's bad or good post exercise well I'm a cool what's the goal of the training session now when you say increased by a mitochondrial biogenesis is that within a certain time period post exercise or is that just period well it would be a when they took the biopsy of the blood marker right but I'm saying like within an hour after exercise with yes yeah so this one I believe was immediately post exercise so yeah huh Wow so now you got a conundrum but this is physiology right it's crazy this is why get so fucking irritated when people say like nah this is the thing and then they pull up plant flags about like this is what we do where we don't do it cuz I said the middle going like you're gonna be a terrible coach mm-hmm because you're gonna be in a situation where you're going to need to violate those rules right Wow that's it's complicated it is I mean this is why we're totally wrong do you find that that's the case is diet as well like I am a big proponent of variable diets and I think that there's a lot of biodiversity and beep well obviously there is where people are allergic to a certain type of foods you know but I just think this one-size-fits-all approach to diet seems the more I study diet the more it seems crazy so I would ask you this what do you think about if I came to you and said I'm gonna do one workout style the rest of my life everyone would be like that's that's stupid well if you want to be a yogi that's a way to go but most of us will say yeah no I also I just don't think it's fun but why do we so why is that acceptable to do that with nutritionist yeah why is that I have to be cute of genic and this is what I do the rest of my life or I have to be paleo or I have to be anything else why in fact is you you when you said variability I assume you mean having a wide variety of foods in your daily yeah I think also a wide variety of who's in your daily life but also I think what works for you might not work for Jamie or might not work for me yeah I think that's the the bio variability but we're gonna go inception on that one because you're ready we're going another level okay if that is absolutely true and most people recognize that but what we don't appreciate is the fact that there's not one diet that works best for you right so there might be one diet that works best for me from powerlifting but it might be different from running Hills or it might be exact same what's a foot the fuck bro yes it is I mean what you're highlighting is a real issue and it's also one of the reasons why there's a lot of what I would call confidence men out there and I don't use that in a good term okay I mean if yeah I mean confidence been like con men there's there's a lot of people out there that still tell you like this is my diet this is the way to go you got to follow my way and you know and they almost always mock other diets which is yeah how helpful is that not good no it doesn't hit anything it's a big issue in the MMA community I see a lot of these guys popping up where they're trying to make a name for themselves it seems super common that someone wants to diminish the the other people out there doing different things and like this is our way and this is the only way is the right way and and that's a straight ego shot well also I think what they're playing to is that fighters in particular wants someone to come along go Andy I got the fucking solution yeah okay you come to me this is a Joe's fucking house of power we're gonna get this shit right we know what we're doing we got a team of experts till he's got a team yeah those got a team yeah and then you get you go I'm with the team yeah yeah yeah I started I signed up with Joe's team and and you really start believing okay this is gonna work but did you think do you think physiology is that precious it's pretty precious not like that it doesn't mean in terms of like oh it has to be lined up perfect and there's a one magical combination of everything no I don't think so but I think for some people clearly like some diets sure fit better like I've had a bunch of friends that went plant-based and not maybe not even vegan but the majority of their food is plant-based and they just feel better you know their body just works better I would say the vast majority of us would yeah then I know but I know a lot of other people that went fat-based that and they feel better too I mean like a lot a lot of coconut oil avocados that seems to me especially true with people that are in intense exercise and I don't know why that is but it seems like a lot of dudes that I know that lift a lot of weights or that are involved in jiu-jitsu or wrestling or anything or there's a lot of explosion it seems to me like a lot of fats and and fish oils and things along those lines when they add those to their diets officially in particular seems to have a big effect on grapplers it seems to help them with joint issues and a lot of pain and maybe inflammation yeah I could I would say that most people are gonna far better on a more traditional carbohydrate diet that are in the more explosive power string stuff especially at the volume that MMA fighters are on because of the amount of output they're doing less amount of the glucose requirements of the muscles exactly and you have to be careful because this is the exact same principle either you're adapting or you're optimizing and if you're not optimizing all the time then you're not adapting and vice versa so if you push yourself to one into the spectrum you're gonna probably compromise the metabolic ability to go back to the other side of the spectrum so spectrum meaning what like when you're defining it in any way but in this particular case I mean so say for example you get very good at metabolizing fat as a fuel mm-hmm that may come with the consequences then of being able to use carbohydrate as a fuel so if you're in a sport that requires that that's potentially problematic what sport would require you use carbohydrates versus ketones anything that's anaerobic so almost by definition so anything that's maximal intensity difficulty is going to be heavily carbohydrate man I wish I got you in here with Dom D'Agostino oh you just had him on yeah he's he's golf fat based I mean he's a hundred percent keto and he believes that ketogenic diets have a host of benefits and that the human body just it functions better on them well so here's a good example I mean I don't know Dom and I wouldn't say anything bad without him being right here it's not not fair but everything I've seen of him has been fantastic like I'm in very much supportive the vast majority of what I've heard him say but his main lens is being focused on cancer prevention epilepsy these things mm-hmm but if you look at some of the research and I'm not an oncologist so I'm gonna speak a bit at a turn here but there are now actually identification of several cancers that thrive on fats rather than carbohydrates really yeah I've not seen this because he was talking about a host of different cancers that I'm sure these sugars and you stop them dead in their tracks but yeah I'm sure he's fully right I'm sure he's totally right on that but I did read something about a type of brain cancer though that is not does not feed on sugar right yeah so again it would be like well good for cancer well what kind of cancer right I'll for prop maybe 80% of them he's right maybe maybe 90% I don't know what the number it'd be environmentally caused cancer who knows right but the vast majority of high-intensity exercise is powered by carbohydrate for most of us now why would it be carbohydrate sources keto it's more efficient and it's faster man see I wish I had you in here with him well I think he would disagree with you well there's not really I mean I gotta be careful faster and it works better well you have carbohydrate directly in the muscle cell that's where it's stored is muscle glycogen okay and so it is an immediate fuel source so when your tones work then those are systemic those are coming from the entire circulation so when you use carbohydrate for fuel you're using the carbohydrate in the muscle that is exercising so if you're doing bicep curls you're burning glycogen from the bicep fiber not even the muscle but the individual fiber that's contracting and how would that be more beneficial than systemic so it's faster I'm right they're contracting I don't have to move it throughout my bloodstream when I use fat as a fuel source it has to be MIT has to be go through like Paul which means it's say it's stored fat in your entire body so people right now listen this podcast go I don't know who fuck the belief man it's not a kind of dude on Mondays says one thing you got a dude on Wednesdays there's another thing yeah shit so that's a I guess that's what I would say my biggest message is it's not like a right or wrong thing that's the wrong question entirely is who's right or wrong do you have any athletes who are on a fat base table salutely who totally I'm probably those ones I shouldn't say that there's me know they're just like hey don't talk about my diet stuff yeah some do okay the vast majority Ellen did iron appellant we go through periods of that with her for sure mm-hmm for a lot of reasons a it's very successful with her periods of that but not when she's competing it's even during training but not when she's competing yes not like on competition day no yes but sometimes a week of so on competition day no because you feel like the glucose based diets are more efficient for in terms of actual physical performance well most specifically for rehydration purposes too okay so all right because she's dehydrating heavily and if you don't consume carbohydrates in the rehydration process you have a real problem okay that makes a lot of sense so we don't go there but we'll do it even maybe like five days out or working of or something but where we have to be careful there and this is one again this is no I'm not bad-mouthing Dom at all okay no like nothing but he's not dealing with somebody who's generally hypocaloric right so when we're going through an athlete who's six weeks of coming down in calories and if we start cutting out carbohydrates we actually did address that I'm always saying that when you're talking about ketogenic states in particular when you're talking about most people during or a regular life 50 grams carburetor carbohydrates would keep you in a ketogenic state but when you're talking about like some you know pro athletes power loved you in hundreds it's 100 250 and you're still ketogenic because your body has much more requirements like I told you he's smart yeah like I'm done generally on board with what he's saying he's a scientist just like you but the problem is micronutrient quality mm-hmm so if an athlete is coming down in calories that and especially those calories are coming from carbohydrate and carbohydrates are their main source of carbohydrates are Lance hmm so if we've compromised that and they're really low in calories then they go down to nutrients to phytochemicals and that's a real problem so we have to be very careful with getting them into keto if it comes with a compromising of vegetable of nutrition right what about like cold-pressed juices or anything like that that's exactly what we do actually a lot of the times we did that specifically in fact that almost single-handedly saved REO for oh it was a real problem she had a real physiological crash like dude that just sucks that to think that at the highest level of amateur competition they have poor food yeah well we had we had to do like because especially because she was basically broke we had to like go up real struggle to find cold-pressed things we could get to her that because we had she was on like 40 ounces a day of that for a while Wow and it's funny we did that and that's I don't know you could do the math but 200 grams of carbs or something mm-hmm and the second we did that her weight just started falling really how interesting so we added 200 grams of carbs and poom weight just flew moldy wood atribute that too combination of physiological and psychological factors psychological she felt better so it caused her weight to drop yeah she was dressed out she was freaked out the woman that cortisol level capture weight higher absolutely uh interesting see she was panicked and she was freaked out and she was stressed cuz she didn't feel good and she's like I'm not losing any weight and once a part of it was we gave her a system that she believed in okay and so she like oh okay we can do this oh now I also physiologically pump some nutrients into you mmm so I don't know like honestly I don't know what part of it was it could've been all psychological it could have been all physiologic I don't know but what we know is it worked right and we gave her a bunch of nutrients and we're like 40 ounces a day or up to 60 ounces a day of fresh pressed vegetable juice and just like clockwork every day you know this is such a complicated subject and it's so nuanced and there's so many different variables that I feel like you have to be a scientist to really truly understand this I mean yes I know it's one of the problems with the bro science people the people that do not have the real education and this stuff that are out there – you know coaching athletes and and teach them what to do and what not to do it's like yeah you don't really know what you're talking about and that becomes a real problem you have to get care like it's funny because I don't know Dom like said but he's example I've never heard him plant a flag and be unmovable movable an idea and it's funny because those of us that do this for a living yeah rarely do we do that right it's the other dicks that do it I think you're right it's like everyone else is like what do you mean I get this one on fiber type more than anything in the planet fiber type that's what I do for a living right like I could tell you more about that than vast almost anyone on the planet and then yet I'll still have people who like I read this guy's Instagram post bro you're wrong like I've hunted up biopsied hundreds of people have isolated tens of thousands of fibers and ran them under lasers and studied um and you're gonna tell me because you read one Instagram post or one review from two years well people I mean nuts and they love it because of that reason they know they love to call bullshit on you I don't respond so it doesn't good luck well no because I bombed him with YouTube videos showing them walking him through the science and it's like alright yeah but they don't read that or watch that like blah blah blah dude you're wrong Instagram post I had somebody on something a few weeks ago some Instagram or something was like going through she was being super respectful so I didn't mind like helping but I was like okay we're done here because I already told you about my three hour video on this and you didn't watch it right fuck off bingo by the way a three hour video is a god damn gift from God because if you stop and think about how much schooling you would have to go through to get the information that's in that three hour video it would take a decade it took my career and you could boil it down to three hours and people like man not interested Instagram page exactly guy add some shit that said you're your own asshole well I did a five-minute videos why my first I was like a five-minute video mmm and I just kept getting so much like ba ba bi you didn't do this and I'm like either really you think I missed that you think I didn't read that one and I was like fuck this like here we go here's the whole shebang me and there you go just there's the link that's it I'm done and through it all up there and I still get the change they don't change when you train like oh here we go now so if someone has like a lot of fast twitch muscle fiber like let's see like Mike Theisen in his prime as an example it's like a ball of fast twitch could you turn a guy like Mike Tyson into like an ultramarathon no well I mean he could maybe complete one right for sure but it's just the elite ok so genetically he's elite at fighting he's just an explosive individual but making him like you know feeling of like David Goggins type character no I mean we have so the the easiest way to understand this is plasticity your ability to change your adaptability mm-hmm is far higher than what people understand in fact there's almost a direct link between the increase in technology and the increase in our thoughts of what change and how much they change oh so our ability to measure it bingo ok so the reason why we didn't think fiber type change 20 years ago is because we didn't have the technology to actually have the fidelity to measure all the ones that we were missing and these are also a probably a psychological factor in there as well as from the people that are measuring it it's probably easier to say that it doesn't change then to say that it does I don't know that it was just more of like that was the evidence CompTIA right so it's confirmation bias the first 10 studies has not shown it so therefore you're not looking for it really hard ok got it move on yeah otherwise you'd be chasing your own tail forever on that well I can tell you right now like it's hard to post to get things into into publication when they completely challenged an entire the entire thought example so for example if if you were the first one to try to publish a study that fiber types changed as a response to exercise training and 20 years of research suggested otherwise you'd have a very hard time getting through review mmm they would hammer you for every little thing that like wow you do this and do this and and is gonna be very skeptical and right that's not good yes that's how it should be that's how it should be right extraordinary claims require yeah so I have no beef with that it's what the problem is when the other people who aren't scientists and don't pay attention like if you don't know it like I do then you need like you can talk about that's fine I talk about stuff I'm not an expert about all the time but you need to be careful when someone else walks in the room and goes like well I do this for a living then you don't just concede the point but you need to be a little more open yeah with listening and going out really bright didn't know that hmm yeah that's uh that's interesting can you think of anything that has changed other than the fiber types that's changed the way people look at things recently because of technology yeah I mean that's a good example um the the hyperplasia it's probably the biggest one and what is that so when your muscle gets a bigger mmm you the diameter of each individual muscle fiber gets larger so it just thickens right well hyperplasia is a concept that you actually add more muscle fibers total so you add cells to the entire muscle and for decades basically you say that doesn't actually exist in humans and now as we're improving our fidelity of our measurement techniques it looks like it happens a lot we know what happens other mammals how what happens in humans when it does is gonna be very difficult and probably impossible to ever show but we have more and more evidence because we know the mechanisms now behind the cell growth so once we see the physiology the mechanics behind it and the molecules and the gene expression and then we say okay it lines up with a B C D and E we just can't show it with F because of technology now we need to really rethink our position here and that's probably the biggest one now when you're dealing with athletes and especially athletes that are trying to make weight like like a fighter and do you ever tell them like say like a Jake Ellenberger who's a pretty thick guy yes down the hundred seventy pounds and you got them exercising and doing all these things and you do a body composition of them do you ever tell them like like you got to lose a muscle like theirs do you ever say that like you're 205 pounds getting down to 170 is you're really gonna kind of fuck you up we've done that a little bit in the past people have come and said hey will you test me and tell me if you think I can go down to 55 or yeah I'm an 85 or something my general approach is you're better off staying or going up it's almost almost always better if they're to go to go stay at weight class or go up awake I could not agree more and you've seen the performances of fighters when they do go up they look so much about Jorge Masvidal is a perfect example yeah 5:55 forever fought at 171 the best in the world now yeah Donald Cerrone another good example there's been a ton of Fighters that move up and look so much better because their body with like Kelvin Gastelum he's another great example yeah he's a he's a diet one though for the most part like he's he gets that dialed he should be able to make seventy no problem but but god damn he looks good at 85 he looks good if we see a gank he's awesome but when you see a guy like Kim and you know he got out powered by a guy like Chris Weidman what's the line in the sand you draw we say okay Kelvin let's put on some muscle and some strength so you could deal with the oil Romero's of the world or let's lean you out and get you off the tacos so you can you could fight guys that you're supposed to be fighting right yeah that's a man like that's an internally question that if they if they really buy into what I say it's it's a needed conversation but a lot of them won't which is fine like so I don't think I have a good answer there man like it's tough he's a classic example though like there's this almost I mean I got to be careful I don't know his camp like I've met him a handful of times we've never been in my lab I don't know like how bad his stuff is or or how like if he's got maybe medical problems that no knows about or other issues that are going on and make it hard so yeah that happens from time to time they don't adjust the ice cream there's a lot of guys are super talented they just love to eat you know man it's crazy like a lot of those folks will will go to food for their comfort for that and for their control yeah that makes sense especially in such a crazy world of the world of competition in combat sports especially in this sport we're like winning and losses so finite and when you get to the top like nobody well rarely people win more than they lose right like it's just so hard so hard and there's so many with the you know like an NFL on major league baseball in soccer there's a clear packing order you beat this person then you beat this team then you beat this team then you get to play for the championship all right MMA it's not like that well it's definitely not anymore you know in the UFC it's real weird like especially the 185-pound division like good fucking luck oh you know everybody's waiting in line to fight Michael Bisping he's probably gonna fight George st. Pierre and everybody be like Luke Rockhold those other guys like what the fuck when he beat Rockhold that's my single favorite MMA moma in history really I'm not like a obnoxious Bisbing fan or anything but that just was the culmination of a dude who put in so much time mmm and he did everything to make it a business he did everything and then he not only steps in and fights it's just a killer and Rockhold who I thought was been underrated his whole career like he's this insanely good but he'd already got it he'd already lost to him convincingly like you know Batson subbed in the first round yeah and older guys don't come back and beat younger guys in rematches ever right it's precious on short note on short notice when he had a whole camp and has every reason to not have confidence and like 90% or more fighters would have just been like nom out like no way he takes the fight like no one would take that fight because if you lose twice to the champion you're done right you're gonna get third just every risk possible and he just nails like this envelopes women knocks him out yeah like not loved Rock whole book that was this incredible it really was crazy and you could really tell that rock hold just thought who's gonna win that fight no matter what right does a done deal totally underestimated them this being so scrappy like he's one of the most mentally tough guys in the sport because he doesn't have like some freakish you al Romero athleticism or anything he's just is just hard work he's not particularly fast no he's not he like he's not super mobile he's he's very skilled and he's got a lot of physical issues too oh he came to see out of one eye yeah you know he's had a bunch of issues with like joints and discs and he doesn't move well injuries no and he's no big for the division or anything doesn't have like people well he's pretty big for 185 well I'm not like amazingly he's not like towering over white men or Rockhold like no he's not beat those guys yeah those guys are and he doesn't have some amazing skill set either way he can fall back on a world championship and wrestling the grinder like he just is like pretty good at everything yeah yeah still just finds it tough you know he's a guy I would love to biopsy and figure out like how much slow touching fast what does he have 34 beats per minute resting heart rate he's fit yeah he's a big factor it's a big factor and then he could push a tremendous pace and then keep it going like one of my favorite fights of Michael's was when he beat Hundley oh yeah cuz he's overwhelmed them and just you see Khun starting to get tired and Bisping just pull or did on yeah just gave him a beating and that was sort of in a lot of ways like a shift towards I mean he was always a world-class fighter there was a shift towards like the upper end of the of the division it was a big moment for his career too because if he lost that that's probably about night night for him in terms of yeah you could say yeah but he doesn't give a fuck knocked out by Vitor comes right back you know got knocked out by Henderson comes right back he's one of the guys I've been around him a bit uh he's hilarious but he's one of the guys work and like he doesn't he just not gonna shake him like that no not at all he's undeniably tough yeah and he's undeniably like when he says like all fight that dude yeah he legit oh yeah he's there yeah you can say like all he's scared of Romero no he's not like snow scared anyways dunno he's trying to cash in when he should like well I think the Bisping GSP fight is a fascinating fight it's fascinating first of all GSP is never fought at 85 he comes back he fights for a world title it makes it compelling yeah I just wonder that this is unfortunate but I wonder how many of these young new fans I would like to say like post Ronda Rousey fans how many of you know who the fuck GSP is I think there's a lot and my wife definitely does well she's a fan yeah but I mean I wonder of how many of the new ones you know the people coming up actually know who he is and mean it's been a long time yeah you know a couple years right more than that yeah and when did he lose to Johny Hendricks I want to say it's three years ago at least at least yeah well beat Johny Hendricks yeah I I'm not a big believer in that decision I feel like at most that was a draw I felt like Hendricks got the most event my buddy Troy its brother at 50k on Hendricks on that fight dirty yeah and outdoors he's like here we go like we're done Hendricks thing was interesting because Hendricks is one of those guys that like oh like what happened to that guy yeah you know like what a lot of speculation on that where you can all read between the lines there well that's that's the problem right there's do you side of speculation there's the motivation speculation there's a lot of speculation you also have that thing to what guys like that put in that many years of wrestling mm-hmm and you start competing that hard that young mm-hmm like that that wears on you yeah time frame yeah yeah there's a like people believe there's a nine year window as a world-class fighter I've heard that before it depends on the sport but yeah that's probably fair as a fighter and that as a fighter like can you get to MMA in particular guys have like nine years to compete at a world-class level and then the wheels just fall off yeah get in get your money get out yeah if you can if you can yeah that's why the 38 I think Bisping's 38 that GSP fights the right move Oh 400 the right move anyway what does Bisbing typically do well with like the fighters like he handles wrestlers decently well mm-hmm he's a very good defensive wrestler yes his Styles can be fantastic it doesn't get tired which is what GSP relied on a lot is is stamina conditioning was great but that stamina like is dependent upon activity like do you even if you're just physically fit but you haven't fought in a long time I don't necessarily know if it's it's applicable yeah well it's also gonna be different too with we'll see what he does weight wise yeah so what people don't understand about when you watch professional athletes fighters in particular is a lot of what happens in that fatigue is either psychological or it's bad weight cut stuff mm-hmm so now you doesn't have that but if he's lugging around extra weight he's not used to potentially problematic depending on how he does it now he's got some smart people in this camp so he's probably gonna be fine yeah but that's a real problem that he may or may not be ready for yeah if he's lugging around extra weight but he was always walking around somewhere around 185 190 he might just decide to compete at that weight that's what I mean like if he stays there he's probably fine but if someone gets in his head and tries to get him up to 202 or something and we're back down like he's probably not gonna feel normal there yeah but she's not gonna run outta gas because of that like having more muscle doesn't make you fatigued more it's the training that does it now do you have fighters use cardio machines like yeah do you have them use versa climbers or treadmills or anything along those lines I don't feel like those are super important differences in terms of we're generally trying to get most their physical activity from training like if you have an extra hour with the training we could get in the week you mean by martial arts training right really yeah interesting so but having said that if we want to do a small circuit or something that incorporates one of those things in there sure but I'm never gonna prescribe if they're not doing it like hey let's hop on it let's get an hour on the elliptical like that's never gonna come out of my mouth hmm that's not to say I would never use it all right I'm not throwing anything I don't know pro or con but that's that's tip do ditional e not where I'm gonna go because it's far easier for us to help them lose weight through food than it is adding on an extra hour and not adding on a Bextra hour of activity can be real harmful for them muscularly right we're necessarily just talking about losing weight we're talking about increase increasing performance do you believe any of those machines it's not believin Harappa Levin right I would go to it if I needed it I don't feel like Inc in camp it's a huge need with the exception of maybe like a recovery so you want to do like hey let's go and easy 45 or something on the bike but as like a 45 hard with the exception of when you start moving to championship fights I do think there's good cause for doing maybe once a week of saying like we do this with Durkin all the time and like hey he loves to ride mountain bikes so go out and the mountain bike and go ride for when you're saying directing me Pat comment yeah sorry it's okay for people not listening yeah don't know but hey that's big part of it is because he loves that mm-hm that's like his real mental release mountain biking yeah it's a great workout too right yeah that's fantastic it's he gets in the Sun he gets away from people he gets to breathe and we're not counting things which can be a problem but if I had another athlete it was like I absolutely hate jogging like it's the worst thing I got a knee problems hurts my back I'm never gonna ask them hey go jog an hour what are you them like what if you if someone has knee problems you want to get them do cardio 45-minute something like that maybe in the pool a lot of pool work can be really helpful if they have access if they can't no one has ever not loved the Aerodyne or air assault bikes mmm like those are fantastic first climbers are great I got no problem with those things what is uh is there a one machine that is like your standby or go-to when it comes to a cardio machine well those would probably throw those are the rower the vertical arm of the rower and the Aerodyne yeah air assault any of those things anything that allowed them to move that minimizes the amount of technical teaching you have to do mmm so that's most people run horribly this is like a real real real problem especially wrestlers if you ever watch a wrestler run it's like you're at your you're a knee pain you're you're a busted ankle waiting to happen so I'm not gonna throw that on them and then try to teach them a new movement skill right it's just not needed there's a thousand ways we can get there if they already run well and they have a running background and we could go there if they want if they want some of them do like it okay fine we can get there but if they don't run well I mean technically well if they're landing in bad positions that their fear out everywhere and they don't want to take time to go to a running coach like Brian Mackenzie or something then like we're not gonna have that we're not gonna add a new skill they know a lot of Greg Jackson's work a lot of his camp they do these hill runs in Albuquerque yeah you seen that stuff yeah going up a hill is a little different though yeah because generally the foot position of the hill is much easier to get to and it's harder to run bad uphill than it is on flat ground hmm generally so it is something you go to but that's also probably something where you don't have as much teaching and you're in altitude so that by itself is going to reduce how hard you work which is gonna reduce the stress on your joints and bones and looking right so that helps so all that can be integrated work you have you reduce the likelihood of them getting a sore back or knees because you added some 45-minute running on there that didn't really have to happen well he'll seem to reduce that anyway because you're really almost like doing squats it's almost like doing her a lunge or something like that so you're just kind of running and pushing your body up and yes instead of like the pounding the eccentric pounding is yeah yeah this is a very good one of the most important things we stress during fight campus you want to minimize that eccentric contractions because that leads to more soreness and if you got really sore legs and you got to go to movie-type practice and somebody jacked you in the leg like that that's a problem and so you have to be able to get work in without getting extremely sore mmm so hills are a great example Aerodyne is like the same thing right it's pushing the whole time it's not landing and impact swimming rowing all these versa climbers that's why they're so good or one of the reasons you do a lot of work is airdyne or averse climber those things limited in the fact that like the movement is like very specific and that is in terms of doing that versus like maybe like a kettlebell cardio workout yep you should that's why you need to do a combination mmm okay so it's a bunch of different stuff just like we talked with nutrition its variability that gets this is what we're looking for especially when the goal is not that modality so for example if you're competing in a kettle ball swinging competition like you should be focusing on that right but when you're using that for another modality that doesn't transfer over then you need to have a wide range of stresses how do you know like what to tell them to do though well so that's the thing is I don't I don't think that stress is necessary like who cares what do you mean so the stress of worrying about which one to do is not important you shouldn't focus on being like actually pick first a climber today or should we add it should be what's the training outcome we're looking for right oh we're trying to improve your ability to repeat maximal sustained 15-second intervals with short rest and all at the same time keeping your breathing mechanics ok that's the goal now what modality do we want to use today to introduce that insult and so you think the good move would be to introduce a bunch of different things like one day yeah one day do the kettlebell cardio workout another day do the air assault was that air salt bike but some salt aerosol dyes punch another day do a verse climber is a general quick statement yeah absolutely but I would say that the smarter approach would be to step back and say well wait a minute what's the goal of that workout mmm what's the goal of today this week this camp this fight that's where you then that guides you to make that exercise choice right so don't like you should never choose the exercise because you love the exercise that's a stupid reason you're getting angry yeah it really irritates me now do you measure resting heart rate its body fat all that jazz not really no no some folks do it it's not super important for me you don't feel like it's important in terms of like finding out whether or not a fighter's overtrained oh that's a little bit different question so you can use things like HRV to track those things what's that heart rate variability so it'll effectively think of it like are monitor mm-hmm but it's going to look at how so your your heart doesn't disco beat beat mmm beat right it has variabilities BB BB BB well that actually is has some relationship with your autonomic nervous system so if it's really variable you're in a good spot if you lose your variability and it becomes beat beat beat beat beat you're actually potentially beating overtrained so your your nervous system is a little bit shot there so you can use those in Joel Jamison again it's done a ton of this work and you can look at that to have an ideas of whether or not they're over trained so you can use that I don't particularly use those things for a couple of reasons number one I know what's gonna happen for the most part over the six weeks like as camps going on like it's based on performance the coach the athlete if when I've been around them like we plan it out so that this is a this is the volume this week this is the volume this week this is the volume this week so that we don't get ourselves in those situations and how do you know how to plan the volume out like say if you got a guy like you know fill in the blank Chris Weidman comes to you and he wants wants to train with you he's getting preparing for a five-round championship fight how do you know how much work to give him like how do you how do you schedule that so I would never have the arrogance to step in and go okay this is a volume you're at Chris I've never met you great to meet you but here's your volume right like that'd be stupid would you have him come and do a test workout for you no I would have a conversation with as many of his coaches and honestly the first time I work with them for something like volume I generally would just shut up and watch and go okay like here's what here's what you're gonna tell me you did so write on a piece of paper what you did for the camp what's your plan for the camp what have you done in the past then I look and we can assess some volume and then I can generally tell okay this is normal for a person of your caliber of your aid in your experience or like you're way over what's normal but I don't know how that lands on you and then I watch and as we go along and it's conversations continuing and going this is happening your other coach told me this you're telling me this is going on blood work came back here mm-hmm don't know if we're in the right spot here and then the second or third camp round then I can have a feel and I can go back at the previous notes and go well this is 10 percent higher this far three more times here I think and then oh it always almost always matches up with yeah I'm feeling terrible etc itself right what do you thoughts I'm like plyometrics box jumps things along those lines yeah box jumps are generally misused so people don't understand especially in in CrossFit or in MMA or in wrestling people use CrossFit for conditioning for the most part which is fine but they don't get the the biggest benefit out of it which is strength speed power train the reactive part of the system training muscle spindles so absolutely fine is a modality but they don't get that out how do they know so for example someone does a box jumps in life okay a box jumps I want to get better power in my legs so they'll go and do like alright let's spar for five rounds and then I'll go do 100 box jumps as fast as I can you're not getting any faster like that you're just getting more tired that will not improve your power at all it won't no because you're not jumping half-assed you're actually jumping at a very submaximal now if you're using it for conditioning fine mmm no problem but if you're using it for the sake of improving your foot speed or your power or your strength or your explosiveness you should be west rep well rusty yes yes one two three reps take a break etc what do you think of like that strong first protocol do you know the pavel Tatsu lean idea that you know he feels that strength is its long same sort of lines what are you talking about that strength is essentially a skill oh absolutely you should not be doing things to failure that the best way to do it in his estimation is to do more sets with more s'more break in between them that is that's like very strength 101 like you'd have a hard time for a true strength person disagreeing with a lot of that it's hard to get stronger when you're tired so going to failure is not as now I've talked to a bunch of people about this that have started doing this recently like within the last year or two and they've all experienced great results and that the idea being that you used to go to failure and then you'd be wrecked like three or four days instead of that like say if you could do 10 reps or something you do five and then you take a big rest and then you do five again and you took a big rest and then you wind up instead of doing 15 reps you wind up doing like 30 over the course of an hour and a half and then you find the next day well I mean you had Liu Yan be Simmons right this is classic fuckin maniac that guy is it was awesome I love that guy I always tell my kids my students to google him yeah you're not gonna get like you know I could get bored oh listen to my podcast with him it's one of the most entertaining things I've ever heard in my life he's such a character the basic idea well it will have to back up for a quick sec cuz it depends on the goal right strength if coal pure strength is the goal failure also has to be defined so we have what do you mean by failure now my family because of fatigue right then he's totally right right am i failing no because they're too heavy well you do want to go to that failure for strength I hope so though so you need do at some point pick up something that you can't pick up or really close to can't pick up to get stronger really close to it like you can do it right but you can't do a second one right put it down or maybe you could do two but you can do three years something like the very textbook answer is anything below five repetitions ish it's gonna be good for strength yeah so the Masters anything more than five is bodybuilding that's what Powell says he that's the that's pretty dead-on I mean he's not too wrong there and what like well a reason I brought Louie up is is he's classic we're saying first reps so if you did three sets of ten right well you had three first repetitions right so you had three reps that you did after rest mmm but if you did ten sets of three now you had ten first reps mmm Oh interesting right so now you did the same total repetitions but 10 of them were done after full rest which means you're gonna have more power and more force that makes sense that it seems smarter that's basically it so you're better off doing ten threes than 310 or strength first strength or power or speed and then taking a big break in between them it's sort of counterintuitive to a lot of people they feel like oh I don't want to be a pussy and right and then let myself get fully recovered I want to push walls till I come on boy come on broke right you're gonna fill your room work and they'll help you up come on come on yeah or I see that all the time meatheads in the gym and they think that's the way to go and I'm like man how now and they're gonna wool they're gonna it's the way to go if they want to get sore if they want to maybe prove us and do that though they'll have to warm round sore you know what's funny this is like the number one reason I got into MMA was that that question like right there be kept coming to me with this and I'm like you don't know basic to speed training or strength training and the MMA guys were so wrong and I'm like that's how I got into this for the most part is it's people are like oh my god this is changing like everything I'm like well MMA training is it's we really strange because MMA training is essentially it's still in its infancy right it really didn't even exist until 1993 and then it didn't even really exist even then until like yeah I feel like Frank Shamrock was the first real professional MMA fighter because he was the first guy to figure out that you have to be an insane cardio and he was the first guy to be able to strike and also be able to grapple to be able to fight off of his back and piece it all together and the cardio is was it was a huge factor you know he was like when he beat Tito Ortiz it was way smaller than Tito right but he beat him because of cardio but one of the things that I used to see early on that was so confusing to me because I came from a striking background was how many of these guys were willing to beat the fuck out of each other in the gym and like that they were just going to war but not even going to war with like good skills like going to war while they were learning for the sake of war yeah I mean I'm watching them getting coached and they're beating the shit I'm like you guys are professionals like this isn't like this isn't like some idiots at the Y like you guys are you're supposed to be pros yeah like you could have damaged yourself the fans take years off of your career the vast majority of you know me working with athletes is doing these very very basic things like I'm not I'm absolutely not the gurus like oh I know the the 18-point blood test and we're gonna get these the vast majority of what I do is go oh okay I see the problem here uh-huh we need to do this basic thing right you haven't eaten a vegetable in a week got it like you as not as much anymore but I used to relay Nia we get a lot of the pro athlete that doesn't eat vegetable we get is honestly it's because probably cuz assholes like you and I watch your show or something I tell people you vegetables all the time know that they watch this and then like okay no come with me with a thousand I really weird nutrition questions or something a really weird advanced training ones cuz I went to a seminar or something and I'm like back the train up like your sparring six times a week mmm yeah we've got a whole nother conversation like oh we don't do that no that's not normal really no okay or you're doing that or you're running 35 miles a week got it like that's the vast majority of what I do is is bring these guys back to life and go like let me help you sift through all this internet stuff that's really complicated and let's take what's actually good and bad and and dial in a very usable system so I think people just get overwhelmed with options from the internet absolutely hmm because too many people get on exposure I get on shows or platforms and they try to make sure that that they are known as the guy that knows something different right right right it's like it's not very exciting if I come up here until you like Joe ants pros and cons to everything great like well that's not fun but it's good I mean I think what you're saying is very important for people to hear yeah like they don't wait they get bogged down in the details way too much of things that really don't matter your body's not that sensitive or insensitive enough where it can't convert something from something to something else and if it needs it it will do that for the most part so there are some real small things at the end but a lot of what we can do is like this just get you on a reasonable program that's actually possible for you to implement mmm and that doesn't drive you so crazy or so is so difficult so confusing for you that you get halfway and do it you abandon it and then you want start over well you know I always think about Dan Gable when Dan Gable was young he pretty much outworked anybody and he was just an unbelievable savage when it came to his training and then that manifested itself in the competition he was just like the momentum behind him because of his ruthless training was so intense but now he can't even walk right when his hips are gone as knees are gone it's got artificial everything you know he's just fucked up because of it and some guys are willing to make that sacrifice yeah but is that here's the question is that sacrifice now sorry like uh can you be too tough vs. smart in your training it's impossible to say right because like you said that here's where it gets so tricky is physiology versus psychology so if that gave him that extra mental confidence that he needed to perform better well then it's hard to say that it wasn't necessary yeah like he was always talking about guys on steroids that he liked compete against guys on steroids because he knew they were mentally weak and he would break right so who the hell knows right like you got you have all this conflicting stuff and you try to do this dance which is why again you need people you need a team to do this stuff and say okay this is what I think some people have a really hard time with physiological truth or scientific truth and implementation so a very easy one sugar right now like I don't know anyone in the world who advocates adding sugar to your diet it's a good thing like no one's gonna say that right but what you tell somebody a scientific truth versus what the message you spread spread to either your athletes are a bunch of people that can be very very different because because of unintended applications or Consequences so for example there is no physiological harm with sugar it's not bad for you in any way but as a message to the general public that's not the worst thing to say and so most the fighting that goes back and forth between any conversation like this is people saying yeah yeah but the actual effect of it is good yeah but the science is wrong and they're not conceding that they're actually talking past each other far more than they're talking let me sell it right there you don't think that sugars bad for you no it can't be it can't be sugar now we've okay so sugar in your diet nope so this is where it gets confusing exactly cuz you wanna break on sugar yeah well having sugar in your diet like eating sugary foods and snacks having an excess of sugar has dire health consequence totally correct absolutely okay there's a key word you said there was excess excess okay so like meaning a piece of fruit like a nectarine not bad for you at all no of course good for you and plus fiber absolutely yeah but processed sugar were they to remove from that fiber and put into a coca-cola that becomes an issue yeah because of concentration issues yeah because now you can consume at a concentration that probably wouldn't happen normally right and quantities that would never happen normally bingo so now you could have person in the corner of left who that says like no you're an idiot look at the science sugar is not bad for you for a thousand reasons and they're technically right but when we have conversations to three hundred and fifty million Americans they don't want all that detail in between they want do it do I do it or do I not and so if I have to take a hard line and I go you know what sugars bad don't eat it it actually causes a generally good effect on people they go oh okay I didn't know this adding sugar to my stuff is not good don't do it right which is a net good thing although technically individually it's not true I see what you're saying so sugar in and of itself is not bad excess sugar and processed sugar and added sugar in mass quantities is bad exactly that's what you're dealing with with the average American diet whether it's through breads or pastas or actually sugar and soda itself right or sucrose or surpluses or any of those things and add it to it and so when people like go they poor souls go on the internet they're trying to figure out like wow got our carbs bad for me or not all right it's like well you're fighting over stuff that's not important and we're missing the message because people want real answers and you're not helping them right give it to them anyway I don't care if it makes you look right on the internet we need to come together and say oh okay well here's good here's bad about it here the pros and cons etc now here's the information for you folks and it doesn't matter whose book it is or who wrote it like that's not the important part well even having this conversation though is gonna be really confusing to a lot of people because you're talking about so many different variables and by your being intellectually honest about all this stuff and saying well it's you know there's no real good answer yeah you know and it's different for one person is for another person some some people might get over really well on like macadamia nuts and almonds and get their protein from you know than other people they might actually have an allergy to those things yeah and you know trust me try to be my students I get irritated as shit when I do this to him but it's probably a good thing but when a fighter in particular is thinking about their career they sort of they exist in the six week to eight week lifespans like their whole life unfortunately yeah it's really or fortunately when it works out well right that they go through these ruthless training camps and to have any variability and to have any unknown to have any so this is yeah I mean you good point this is not a kind of conversation I would have with a fighter right not during not especially ten weeks out from a fight overload their brain with mobility no no no it is very clear like what do you do what do you like to do what he hate to do what have you done before what's worked well it cetera okay so uh I have an analogy called the cook the baker and the chef I'll give you a very quick story of it you can listen the whole episode on my podcast if you want what does the cross call the body of knowledge okay so I like it's on our Tunes all that yeah yeah all that stuff body knowledge calm it's it's actually not to talk about that too much there's only nine episodes it's not like gone on running podcast it's like radio lab Dan Carlin but for physiology Gould and conditioning so not to that extent but you get yeah okay so I like to look at people as either the easy one is either baker or a cook right so do you know what the difference between baking and cooking is no cool most people don't baking is chemistry basically right you can't like I'm a little tea table spoon here maybe teaspoon baking soda baking powder now same thing that does not work you can't bake like that right you will not make anything you're you would have a mush of crap in an oven baking is chemistry you do this in this order and this and you add this and you cannot do these in other orders it's very specific like roughly cooking is like well alright what's left I'll get some oil get some hot kind of dices yeah awesome whatever that you give them mishmash right so people generally I find work well with nutrition information either one of two approaches so if I said Joe I'm gonna do a nutrition program for you for the next six months whatever you want and I said you can either do this one of two ways we can work together every morning wait every single thing you eat on the scale text it to me I'll tell you exactly how many slices of avocado to have how many jalapenos and we would tell you exact weight sand volumes for everything or we can maybe text once a day or once a week and we would just go over concepts and ideas here's what we're trying to get to do what you want which would you like ma'am I don't know what should I like it's not a shirt it's a personal preference okay so some people would cook just wants ideas right give me the concepts like one or two things to work through cool I don't I get anxiety with all those rules all that information and like I can't amend it like it's too complicated I don't have that much time etc I call those people cooks other people get anxiety like my wife Natasha when I don't give her exact numbers mmm she's like well is it six grams just eight almonds there's at nine almost like what is it right so giving people the information in the way that they absorb it is important so if you talk to a baker so chemistry details weighing everything out and I go alright just here's gonna do a little bit of fat a little bit of protein some greens that's not going to work for them you have to give them a very very specific system have a cup of this tablespoon of that even if that system isn't perfect what about chef so a chef is someone who knows the chemistry of baking but has the years of experience of mixing it in different ways now you can go ahead and break those rules right chefs break camp cooking rules all the time baking rules so a chef was like Anderson Silva well of fighting yeah yeah but a chef would be maybe where you're on your nutrition where you go you know what like I can do that I could follow very specific diet but I know the concept and I know these rules let me experiment here and you have room to maneuver the problem is most people want to jump in and be chefs people want to fight like Anderson Silva their first day you know what you're saying so get a detailed understanding about how your body functions under very specific protocols and then start fucking around with it or the opposite start off with a cook approach it to say let's give me let me give you one or two concepts this week I want you to eat one fresh green every day and I want you to make sure you have protein every time you eat that's it my only rule okay next week we had a rule maybe we got another concept and as you get better you get more confident and you get more comfortable you can go okay well how much protein exactly now let's just try hunter grams all right well that's that let's try hundred fifty and we've we've slowly pushed you but generally being a baker all those rules weighing everything generally that's not sustainable for most people hmm now when you coat do you coach them as far as their diet goes do you actually tell them what they shouldn't should need depends on if they're cook or a baker so a cook I do not I tell them basic concepts right so I talked to them how what's gonna be helpful for them they think I should do should I add more carbs or should I hear some feelings when I'm I'll go we're way out like cure diet yeah yeah let's add more carbs how should I do it this or this this one do you generally tell people to avoid any specific foods or are there any things that interrupt training or get get into the way outside of the obvious no no I mean the basics candy people not really unless we have some very specific history with them that hey remember you don't react well when this happens but generally I don't know when you say like protein do you specify fish or chicken or meat it's a cook uh-huh no no if it's a baker absolutely absolutely and whether it's important that i chosed fish or chicken almost doesn't matter as much as telling them that the fact that they oh cool he's got it dialed for me great I got you know eight ounces of halibut there it is BAM right right cuz you'd be like the vast majority of the ones I work with are already pretty good with their nutrition and it's really more concepts some of them would want the stress relief tell them what to eat and they want someone to come in and hey do you know anyone that come in and food prep meal prep for me and yeah okay we can do that but some of them like it some of it is their de-stress some of them like that control no I I try to help them again it's not about me I don't care if my system worked I don't have a system my system is what do you want to do how can I help you and your team what can we do that's the approach right Wow God that seems so it's there's so many variables and it's so complex yeah which is why I get so irritated utin you're teasing me earlier about getting all fired up about it I could understand but I appreciate this intellectual honesty about these variables and about how there is not one approach because again there's so many dickheads out there that are teaching their method and air quotes so here we go let's take those dickheads right if you're a baker landing on one of those systems is gonna be fantastic for you and you're gonna five-start review them you're gonna because you're a baker yeah and you needed a system mm-hmm yeah and if you're a cook though you're like well who cares and if a scientist could step in and go like well these are all the problems and this and this and this and this and then and everyone's fighting back and forth you're like well fuck do i guest or not I felt like I'm so confused well it's done the right question I think what irritates a lot of people is that some people are finding like this insecurity that people have and they're exploiting it by telling them exactly what they think is right it's human nature yeah right we want the next solution we want all this stuff we want it all dialed into one it's I call a fallacy of unicorn mm-hmm like I'm just gonna keep searching because there's there's this one thing if I fix that one thing everything else a lineup mmm doesn't work like that yeah now what about vegetables like do you specify the type of vegetables you like do you prefer a dark leafy green vegetable general statement beets or the more color the more texture the Benham right and like you said actually earlier it's the variety that matters what these folks is sustainable now having said that here's what I'll do outside a camp these are conversations we're having like I want as many different vegetables as you possibly can different colors different countries different seasons all this stuff right let's let's cook them sometimes let's steam them let's eat them fresh let's eat them raw there's pros and cons mix it up exactly oh now you got a fight in four weeks and we're 25 pounds overweight sometimes I will take those options away because it's easy then to control numbers if I say okay here's the approach you're gonna have a B and C got these three meals every day mm-hmm every other day we'll rotate then I've just removed a bunch of variables from there and they can just real focus and go okay boom and we can watch the weight we're down half a pound we're down half pound down a quarter pound we're great let's maybe exchange out kale for spinach this time or something but the hard part about extreme variability is lack of control mmm and so sometimes if you're like wow I mean no I think you're telling me I'm eatin a bunch of different stuff and I'm not losing weight well maybe they don't understand yeah but this type of vegetable has a lot more calories than this type of vegetable so we're getting really high up in your numbers or when you eat this the way you prep it the way you like it is calorically dense so I will reduce options for them so it is funny because if you looked at you know one of my nutrition programs for my athlete you could look at it and be like let's guys an idiot he doesn't have this this this and this he's stupid he doesn't have any of this and you're like dummy you think that that three day plan is what we did the whole year round your argument is not even real oh they're real you of all people know they're real I know what about water no I've always wanted to ask somebody this I hope you know the answer there's all these these ways to treat water now go line water runs and full shit right mostly yeah I would assume so yeah we've actually a study on that six weeks alkaline what does it mean like what the fuck is outgoing water that's pH right so it's the opposite of acid right alkaline so base but I mean how do they make the water that way like what are they doing to it Oh so generally water comes probably a little bit acidic especially our tap water and so I would imagine they just do some sort of combination of salt or desalting pretty easy we're on chemistry wise so to get it a little bit technical so just I think you've all to your water I think somebody did um actually did a study of a bunch of those alkaline waters and tested them in the store like bonden brands and they were all over the place acidity wise yeah I would imagine that I'm close to alkaline but you also have like remember it's gonna change and it sits on the Shelf right exposed to sunlight all that crap I call it holy water yeah it's kind of silly I mean I'm I always feel like like oh yeah that's the Blessed water come on man it's fucking water I mean dude look I'm open if right studies came out and we kept doing well should there's something here well there's no studies that's happened before what something like that's nonsense that's stupid I mean a bunch of things the training mask it's a training mask yeah absolutely is it good well it's not good or bad depends on what you use it for how dare you yeah I knew answer I'll give you an answer okay so what I'd like to do is give examples of one good one bad right and this is Brian Mackenzie I keep bringing him up but he taught me this lesson this is a great lesson in humility so he's a if you don't know him he's a it was really disruptive in the running community and the movement he came up Kelly Starrett like they came up together okay so I wasn't interested in him people kept getting at me like hey go look at his stuff and I'm like well he's a CrossFit coach out like not if you don't like CrossFit is nothing against that but at the time I was like what this right okay CrossFit coach now right again arrogance on my part mistake and second I'm like you're a running coach like I'm doubling and uninterested yep again this is me highlighting my mistake soon so but then I actually you know funny enough paid attention to what he was saying and it turns out there was something there so it's funny how much he hated someone when you don't actually listen right or read their stuff so he was promoting the training mask and I'm like you know like everyone else in like doesn't work evidence shows doesn't work etc etc etc and then I listened to what he was how he was actually using it so he wasn't using it to simulate altitude because that's not really effective but he was using it to teach people how to use their diaphragm and that's when I was like oh I get it here so I'll come back and I'll finish this in but the quick analogy here would be if I handed you a pen and said you know like this is pen work well it may not work as a dagger but it worked pretty good as a pen so the problem with the mask was its flipped it didn't work for what he was told you to work for but it worked because it in this case the act of restricting people's breathing sometime can help them learn to use their diaphragm people who breathe with their shoulders up mm-hmm and they don't use their stomach and their diaphragm a lot when you put that mouthful in front of their face they don't have that option and so they learn to breathe through their belly and use their diaphragm mmm and so I just didn't give him the time of day because I'm like training mask doesn't work elevation etc etc oh that's not how you were using and what's the benefit of breathing through diaphragm with a mask on it's not the mask that's important is the fact that it would use it's a quick way to identify if you're bring this so you figure no it's like a weight belt bas Rutten has some sort of a breathing device and he he was telling me about some studies that they did with it I wasn't showed was he you that's mine Oh beautiful my lab well what he was saying is that what makes his better is that it's easy to breathe out then the valve open so you can exhale really good dump your carbon dioxide where's other ones that have just smaller holes are not as good so we did that study okay and this is actually that's what turned me on to Brian initially because I'm like the boss came to me with the o2 trainer I was like like this stuff doesn't work bro turns out of this but here's a good example so his device restricts airflow in right but you can change the setting so it can be a lot of restriction or a little bit richer yeah he has like filters that you put on there so right there bas Rutten yeah the o2 trainer exactly so all those little valves on the left and right hand side they're thick they oh no he increased airflow or decrease airflow so what we did is we had people come in four times and they either got the high restriction low restriction and medium restriction or no restriction and what we saw is in every person under one of those sorry come back up they that came in and either they did some breathing drills like blowing it out inhaling as hard as they can blowing it out and they did that 30 times and then they did basically a vo2 max test so they ran to exhaustion which took them five to eight minutes kind of thing so we want to see like I was interested in performance like does this actually make me perform better and so they either got a lot of restriction to the restriction medium or none every single person got substantially better like twenty to thirty percent better under one of the conditions but they also got worse under one of the conditions as well so what that told us was this if for example you went under the high restriction so you're like and you can't get any air in it actually fatigued your intercostals which are the muscles between your ribs that open up your ribs and allow airflow in the diaphragm and those got fatigued so when you did your performance you got slower because you were already cast hmm but if you had really strong intercostals the lower so the real open valve wasn't enough resistance to actually cause those muscle to warm up so that didn't help your performance so what we found is my point here basically is the individualization of the approach here is really really important so there's something there for all of us but you're gonna have to titrate out you might need heavy you might need light you might need middle and one of those situations you might actually make it worse for you so the the individual variability is the important point there how would you figure out which one you needed performance test and what kind of performance s for use in this predicted say I'm gonna run a mile and a half and a quarter my time and put that thing in your mouth as you're running or as your as your warm-up as your warm yeah so you sit there you put in your mouth and you do so you only use it to do drill so you don't necessarily use it to actually work out the vast majority the time that's what I recommend mmm you could do it when your work out but it would be for different reasons so when you do it what would you recommend doing like say say if I got an o2 trainer I put it in like what kind of workouts am i doing with this thing in my mouth what am i or breathing exercise again you're gonna hate this okay probably some of your fans are getting irritated by now but it depends on the goal to workout so if the goal of the workout is to get the best score possible right then you do probably 30 or 40 breaths with the optimal resistance feel great okay but if the point of the workout is to actually improve the strength of the diaphragm bingo right then you then you put yourself in suboptimal positions it's right back to what I said beginning adapting or optimizing so you're talking about so the muscles in between the ribs can you actually strengthen those to the point with I mean that's a huge issue with guys cuz you're injured absolutely you get strengthen those with that bow to training with that's one mechanism but you can do it a bunch of different ways we have done you've had you've had wim hof on yeah so I've been working with wim for a couple years now so doing initial stuff with him and it's very clear like we can mess with a lot of different breathing protocols and get you a lot of immediate and delayed up oh sorry Brian one more time he had his conversation with John Jones on Wednesday before the fight first time that ever met someone put him in contact Brian put him through some of these breeding protocols as soon as they hung with the phone or soon as they were done John was like hey we fly down here on Saturday flew him down that day had him in his corner walked him all the way down was right next to probably you and Dana Moniz doing all the things so like this is how impactful some of these breathing things aren't our women was great to get us like started bosses device was awesome the training mouse work work concepts but now brian has really evolved and developed and said actually there's a bunch of different ways we can do it and he has protocols heat you're gonna have to ask him but he is the one that could say like do this for this thing do exactly this way for this thing you got this adaptation you want this effect Wow he has it all dialed in I go to a cryo chamber cryotherapy place we put a surgical mask on earmuffs and your whole body's immersed it's not just below the neck oh yeah yeah but you see those huh and what I use the wim HOF breathing method it's almost like somebody made it 50 degrees warmer oh yeah it's ways I just got back from Montauk I spent three days and jumping and ice baths the whole time out there but we actually have multiple protocols so that's more akin to most someone call the Breath of Fire is this when you're with Dennis said yeah we were out on an event out there with Laird Hamilton and those folks are Brian also they layered in Gabi and Brian Pat Gabby Reece and Laird Hamilton started a company called xpt that kind of puts a lot of this lifestyle stuff into practice and so they put on these live events they also sent me some of their new super food stuff that they add let's see the creamer stuff yeah really good amazing yeah it's a little espresso based powder plus superstar – I like it it's fantastic yeah so I will work with thanks Laird or a couple of years since they got started but we go out there we do these things and so we can say okay we'll get through the Breath of Fire protocol and you'll feel like wow you get hot you get warmed up there's other ways we can do it that'll bring you back down where you're like yeah I'm gonna take a nap there's euphoria ones where you can get like wow I'm feel like I'm on psychedelics right now super high call atrophic breathing bunch of apnea stuff pranayama stuff all these things can have different outcomes depending on what you're looking for so they've Brian has got the system developing our like it's that's what he did with John the first one he did it was like 10 o'clock at night and he's like alright let me relax you to kind of bring it down maybe I call this amazing but things like I actually got trained right now so I couldn't get me back up it's a garden go back that way let's load him back up so is there any benefit stuff to using those breathing techniques versus an o2 trainer or is it different situations exactly it's situation based there's things I like so you mentioned what boss says of the opening valve at the end of the o2 trainer allows you to dump out carbon dioxide mm-hmm okay the training master for example wouldn't right right so it's not right or wrong it's just depending on what you're looking to do because one thing you can train your body to do is how well do you perform when you've generated a bunch of carbon dioxide right so a carbon dioxide is what actually makes you feel like you want to breathe right it's not lack of oxygen right right so I can put you in a situation where you get a bunch of carbon dioxide buildup and if I don't let you dump it then you're gonna fatigue a lot faster but that's not necessarily a bad thing you could learn to then deal with a lot of fatigue deal with it mentally psychologically as well as physiological ii really there's gonna be adaptations so because of the fact that your body has more carbon dioxide in the system you your body adapts to process that carbon dioxide more efficiently this would be the assumption like yet to be scientifically shown oh but this is you know where we were this is the thought process hmm you can feel this intuitively you're like wow and it's also a way for us to get a lot of training volume in or sorry a lot of cardiovascular training in because your heart rate goes way up without actually doing a lot of physical work and so for MMA guys that this is what we're looking for sometimes because of physical work and their training camps so high we can't add any more volume to them is gonna beat them up so now we can get them a cardiovascular workout and that's easy on the joints and ligaments and the bones hmm so the other approach would be dump all the co2 or do other things like nasal breathing only so the whole workout you're only allowed to breathe through your nose when you breathe through your nose it actually can release nitric oxide which is a basal dilator so this is why when you only when you breathe through your nose not only but especially when you breathe through your nose huh why does your body produce more nitric oxide when you breathe through nose yeah I don't know that's weird because you would think that just breathing like wim HOF I was asking them like breathing yeah he's bringing breathe anyway yeah he says like any hole I don't care yeah but so again woman's not wrong or anything like that but whims style is great but there's many styles as the point I guess like he's great we've done some science stuff together but how do you feel about saunas same thing amazing benefits their potential but there's no free passes in Physiology so when you get something you're probably coming at a compromise of something else what would the compromise be when you do a sauna to know well we just don't have enough evidence on this stuff we know we focused on the heat shock proteins that's like everyone knows about those by now right the ability to deal with uncomfort the Teague like there's a lot of stuff the difficult is when you run a scientific study you get one or two or three variables you don't get a thousand right so we focus on the one or two that you're like wow this is moving something here but I mean just like the example we went over the cold soak oh yeah it's great for this or actually it's terrible then people say no they want to make blanket statements like heats good or colds good or colds bad well as we study it more we start to finding out well actually it's good for this it's good for this and it's bad for that not nothing that so we'd have to assume sauna would be the same way there has to be consequences to it it just depends on application but there's got to be some sort of benefits in terms of recovery right so do you think that someone should do maybe like cryo one day sauna the next should they do them on the same day like so for example a fighter in camp I generally don't go out of my way to recommend sauna because they already get really hot in training hmm you're grappling especially if they're doing key stuff they're getting heat shock protein I don't know there's a study they're doing right now at Harvard apparently somebody was telling me about it the other day where they're they're concentrating on hot yoga and the benefits of hot yoga and heat shock proteins yeah I'm sure they're gonna find a lot yeah like that that's pretty I mean that ship sailed a little bit like we're confident something there's a lot of detail to work out but somes going on probably something similar to sauna right so I generally say for people like you and like me I don't go out of my way to do too much sauna work because of the way I train I get really hot and sometimes we'll train specifically with a little bit more clothing sometimes and get kind of like one stead of sitting a sauna for 45 minutes let me wear a little bit extra clothing during my training session and get real hot doctor but for the average people I think it's a fantastic modality because there may be only working out once a week or less and you gave you can get them hot and we can actually work on those health benefits while we're building good quality habits and we can eventually lead him down the path to more exercises Emanuele Stuart used to run the Kronk gym he used to crank the temperature up in the gym over a hundred degrees that was his thing like he wanted guys to box yeah like in essentially like hot yoga room well there's a couple of things to that I've done a lot of that in my life and I used to hate it we used to just fight for the door like wait for the round to go over wrestling wrestling practice I really used to do MMA with it all the time and like the problem was ooh scary because the floor is water oh yeah and you're like I'm not kicking I can you're terrified just that's not good it was awful hey I hated it that's real bad for kicking let's skip those practices a lot you hahaha but so example I don't think that's particularly needed with the exception one time when Pat Cummins fought in Brazil it was like 110 outside and it was 80% humidity or something which fight was that ah it was um Cordero failfish yeah yeah it was outdoors I think no it was indoors but everything was open oh that's what it was yeah so super super hot now we did like train for that or anticipate that but you could see if you knew you're fighting a venue like that yeah like what they used to do in Bodog and Costa Rica like oh yeah they would fight on the heat job Yeah right just horde outside so you could see like well in that situation maybe it's needed but mm-hmm you're fighting and you know Vegas or something endorsment and maybe we don't need it for that right but that doesn't mean you couldn't implement it once or twice mmm I wouldn't buy my way to do it though right so it wouldn't be a daily thing no because what's gonna happen is you're gonna compromise performance pacing is a real problem is being a great example this to Dennis was a bunch of people if you fight an environment like that your pace and the amount of output you can do is gonna slow way down in the gym right can be hot you're gonna gas out and then when you go to fight in your fight and it's temperature controlled you're not used to that pace so if you're used to fighting at the pace that it takes for you to sustain ten rounds of sparring in the gym at 110 degrees and then we come in and you and I fight and I'm ready to go with this beat you're not ready for that pace mmm so it's not that you don't physically have the conditioning but you're just like oh my I'm just not home this guy's is and you know you don't feel right so you have to be careful of training too far outside of what you're actually gonna encounter mm which is you know some of these guys run to those problems when they do you know I'm gonna spar 10 around so that I can go five easy yeah yeah but your pays for your five is way different than pays for your 10 hmm so you have to be careful there a lot of questions man physiology dude dad that is part of the problem right that there are so many variables there are so many questions that there is no real definitive protocol to follow no there's a bunch of different ones the pursuit like though the way I always say it is the truth is mostly a lack of perspective so when you think that you are on some unbreakable truth it's because you haven't looked at it from a big enough perspective mmm for the most part right and there's some I'll put it this way in in biological truth that's almost always true and physics truth oh that's a lot less true like we're pretty sure gravity's real like we're pretty sure right and we can mechanics sure water is good for you pretty sure now quantum mechanically those get kind of weird right but for the most part that is true but science in terms of biological or medical is a lot less true I mean how many times we have to see that where it's like this is true this is true for 50 years oops it's not is this all fun for you do you I mean it seems like you're very passionate about it but I mean it's it also seems like wow it could be kind of stressful having so many variables and possibilities and I don't I don't think stress is even close it's I would say 99% fun like it's stress for me in terms of I don't want like it would break my heart if I gave someone the wrong advice and it ruined their career like that would be the stress stress in terms of being right or like saying it much some stuff and be improved I don't care about that at all yeah that is an issue with a lot of trainers right like we're they giving bad advice and yeah you see it play out in a fight I I mean one of the reasons I I used to do a lot of professional athletes and other sports work with other ones I gave that almost up entirely and I gave up I've done some actors and things like that but I generally shy away from that even though the the money is far far higher for me and those things but I did it because like these MMA folks like I have a real passion for someone who's gonna put all that on the line and they're gonna risk everything and they're gonna go out there and that is more exciting to me and I'm like that's a fun a really fun investment in me in it and it's worth me investing my emotion I mean when Helen one golden Ryo like I would just lost it like emotionally I was like gone for weeks like just exhausted because I invested so much into that I don't want to do that for somebody so they can make an extra million right on top of that 30 million like it doesn't motivate me that much so I like working with these folks and so because of that like it breaks my heart if you're like man you gave up everything for this kind of a living and the best outcome for you was that you made 20k instead of 10k and then I lost that for you because I gave you really bad rehydration advice for something right that's a stress for me but the rest of stuff man like it's fun it's invigorating for me to continue to be like well we we answered that but now we don't know this or this like it's continual progress and and by like I take Karl Popper stance on this one in terms of like science is not about identifying truth it's reducing uncertainty mmm that's good that's all it is right I wish I could take credit for it it's a good way to put it so we just we get closer and we know more okay we know this is notice but we're still do you anticipate a day when we do like it's when it comes to biomechanics or well there's no G there are some things that I would be confident in saying like basically we know that this is true now you need to drink water like alright basically say that that's true we need to have a lot of vitamin E standard stuff then those are things I'm comfortable saying this is basically true and as we go on we only keep adding to that list so more things get piled on now we know for I told this story also on my podcast about the history of strength conditioning and how it went from the 1900s to where it is now and the quick story is there was a guy named Peter Karpovich who was a scientist and he was extremely he was the guy who started the idea that lifting weights causes you to lose flexibility and it's bad for your health and all these things right this is 1952 54 something like that and he's a scientist PhD and he calls in a guy he gets caught a guy named Bob Hoffman he's called in do you remember Bob Hoffman you're from the generation you may remember York barbell muscle and strength like the magazine okay you may recognize all this stuff but basically there was a show and I said bring in this these weight lifters because back then weightlifting power that think bodybuilding was all kind of same thing is it bring him in and let's put on a demonstration and so they bring in all these lifters and they put on this demonstration in front of the whole school in front of dr. Karpovich in and everyone's like oh they're great they're strong and athletic and everyone knows like the showdown is coming everyone's there to watch the show but everyone's really there to watch like that just like they are on the internet now it's like let's watch the shit show afterwards right so everyone's done and carpet stands up and he's like it's great you're strong and got a lot of muscle and all that but let me ask you a question can you scratch your back I think I was like sure you know we're at like what where he starts scratching bone planning everywhere what you want to do what do want me to do drops into a full splits grabs 50 pound dumbbells does a standing backflip and at this point car pitch is like oh like my entire career is that strength trainings bad for you it's unhealthy you lose flexibility and these dudes the strongest known world just showed up not only are they not inflexible but they just did it splits they're they're bodybuilders and reigning world champions so he was at a crossroads right there in his career to say like do I admit it from the whole world about how wrong my entire research line was or do I find some excuse wow you that well he does the honorable thing and goes I'm sorry I'm wrong and changed his entire career Reese going on to actually studying strength training and of course shows that doesn't do any of these things we do so this is the nature of science is we're mostly wrong until we actually study and then we get less than less than us wrong so that's really where we're at with with everything that's an easy example but if you told somebody 50 years ago flexibility or strength training makes you and flexibles they're like wow I don't know look at this study look at this study that used to be an issue with boxing right things to always say boxers should never strength train till Evander Holyfield came along with Maggie she'll stone right and won the title yesterday yeah the airport looks great oh man it's crazy huge he was pulling like a walking out of the bathroom by himself and he had like his cell phone up to his ear like I'm on the phone but I think his cell phone was dead he's like didn't want anybody talk to him that's it I don't blame him no he look fantastic yeah buddy minded is he's doing you know he's uh he's like coach or managing fighters now or something busy yeah hopefully not financially I don't know a vendor's like pi the biggest house that exists yeah yeah that fucking stupendous mansion in Atlanta it was like a hundred and fifty brooms or something like that did you put that much money in front of people and sport like that especially when you're balling when you're balling the other people were balling and trying to ball harder you gotta do what you got to do I don't think MMA has ever caught up to that in terms of financially yeah it's getting close with Conor McGregor honestly his biggest windfall right now as a boxing match so you know the the thing about a Vander that's weird is that he never got out of shape he looked fantastic yeah he's still fit he's got him he's like you plus he's one of the rare guys and I think he had a fight as recently as a year ago no oh yeah yeah Wow find out when Evander Holyfield's last fight was I really want to say he had a fight like a year ago oh that's terrifying yeah but he's okay it's weird it's not like oh what's this dude just retired or just got smashed really bad Hopkins yes yeah that was a freak incident man that's one of the things about like why don't they have pads around the ring case guys fall through the ropes like I can't imagine that they didn't they've seen that happen before guys are getting fucked up through that before that's all fight stops it's a right yeah yeah but that was like a fake charity boxing match what does it say those in terms of when is his last fight yeah but that's not real I think you're lying Joe like you know just just pull up is his record it's Wikipedia record I'm sure there's a Wikipedia on a van der Holyfield Brian no Nielsen 2011 okay so six years ago yeah that's pretty recently in consideration oh you know what it was I believe he was planning a comeback a few years ago and he was having a really hard time getting licensed oh I think that's what it was I would still say if you would ask me I what I said 12 years ago hmm like I would've guessed way longer that well he how old is he now 61 60 oh okay so 555 yeah so essentially had his last fight when he was like what 48 49 something that yeah makes sense that's a stylish okay well I don't know I don't really remember he's top of that much you didn't take a lot of shot did you take a lot of shot oh hell yeah yeah bruiser yeah I mean he talked took some he just had a tremendous chin he's just an unbelievably tough guy and he unbelievably fit you know that was the thing about Holyfield was that unbelievably fit unbelievably game like when he beat Mike Tyson in the first fight mm-hmm like I remember it was you know Kevin James yeah heaven it was actually over my house we were watching it together would jumping around screaming like a bunch of schoolgirls kids made it it was insane yeah yeah cuz nobody saw that comment yeah I was like right yeah that was amazing yeah he had a spectacular career though oh he certainly did yeah hope you still got it together upstairs like that's just a tough one mm-hmm it certainly is yeah that it's got to be weird I wonder what do you ever have that conversation with a fighter I do yeah it's not my role so I don't bring it up at all right if they ask me unlike a friendly advice thing and look it will be very careful with names here but I generally tell them all to retire like regardless my approach is no this is a manaat' worth the payout in the UFC it's just not like there is the occasional connor but this is this is the anomaly that proves the rule actually so my advice to all of them is if it's not a good investment like it is not worth the risk because even if you get the wind bonus and the fight of the night one fight like that is potentially years and how much income could you make in those 10 years of working probably more than that hundred K well in terms of income for sure but for a lot of them it's not really what they're doing it's not doing it for glory right so for I mean that's but I'm taking it from a logical perspective I'm not telling you what to do I'm saying they like me as your friend I would love to you to never fight because it's great but having said that you do that so let me help you as much as I can to get there but I mean you can kind of tell – like if you're if you just don't if you're not on that x-factor charisma wise and stuff you're never gonna make that real like life-changing right we're just talking about money though in terms of damage and you notice in terms of physical performance when you're seeing an athlete move around I haven't gotten to that I haven't gotten anybody like that word if you had someone come to you and say hey I'm thinking about you know when I get out I'm not exactly sure when what do you think yeah I mean I would I would look at them from the performance side of it I wouldn't look at brain damage at all I would say well here your numbers in the room second down to other folks we've had in this room and you're if you're far below their performance wise I would say you might have a performance problem in terms of you might not be talented enough physically to compete like I'm not gonna make a comment about your other reasons to retire but if yeah if I tested you across the board and you were terrible at everything mm-hmm then I might be like well physically from my perspective I don't know if you have what it takes anymore right do you see a deterioration in physical skills from like punishment I don't know if I could really say that but that's just because I don't like I don't have enough exposure to enough of those folks to make a qualified comment on that over long periods of time like yeah yeah I would need dozens and dozens of guys over years to really fairly what's the longest you've ever worked with a guy five six years probably yeah probably six years that's a lot of time it is and it's not like like some of them is not everything I'm not talking them every day and sometimes it's like once a camp generally what my goal is is to teach them how to think as much through the stuff as they can and so ideally they don't need me after more than a couple of camps other than a few check-ins right I want to come to lab get this tested I got a hunch about this or we did this type of training for six weeks we think we're addressing this problem can we come to get it tested to see if it actually got better yeah no problem but a lot of the other stuff I do is like I said it's so much usually helping them calm down through all the nonsense that I can give them a settling presence in terms of you this is not something you should worry about her right get to here so but yeah multiple five six years and we've got data we got biopsy data off them from over the years which has been very very interesting actually that was one of the first reasons I wanted to get into the sport because I'm like I wanted to biopsy these dudes yeah that's got to be really as a scientist got to be really an interesting opportunity yeah we had I had one fighter it was pretty crazy because he's a he was a wrestler and a very very he war he wins through attrition like that's his style he's not like a knockout artisan like that and he was almost 70 75 percent fast which well yeah and then we also look this other thing so one of the things that we measure in our lab is called mild nuclear domain so the nucleus is what holds the DNA and it tells the cell to grow shrink thigh mech repair well like human violet or human muscle is really unique it's one of the only cells on all of biology that is multinucleated so that means it's got not only more than one but it's got thousands of nuclei per cell the obvious advantages that allows us a lot more plasticity so we can recover and repair and adapt and adjust really really quickly which is why we see people's fiber type change in a matter of weeks paper that came out last year showing actually a high-fat high-sugar diet can change fiber type we've seen carbon dioxide concentrations alter fiber type things like this so the nucleus is really interesting because the more nuclei you have the faster you recover it's also what determines how big a muscle will grow you've heard of like muscle memory yeah so that's this is what's doing muscle memory that makes sense I always wondered if that was real uh well working right now through it a lot of people are but the old theory would be a satellite cell would come in they would turn into a nuclei and the cell will only grow as big as the amount of nuclei that are around it or that inside of it right and so what that basically means is there's a certain domain or certain size that each nucleus will control and it won't exceed that size because it loses control so if if you are all three of us and you know we're all the nuclei and this whole room was one cell if we wanted to expand the wall we would have to bring in another nucleus because you'd be like dude like it's too much area to control so when you go through like about a training a year or something of heavy lifting and we add those those satellite cells that turn into my own nuclei and we expand the size well we used to think like if we stopped training and this and the room gets smaller we used to think that all right like time to kick Jamie other room he's gone but now what looked like happening is he's staying around so then when I go to retrain I've got more of those nuclei right there and so it's easier so I got excited hit the mic it's easier for me to expand my size because the nuclei there oh that makes sense okay so there's actual scientific reason for muscle memory yeah and you can increase the amount of nuclei just by increasing the size of the muscle and that makes it easier to go back to that if you lose some muscle well right the the model nuclei would allow for the muscles get bigger yeah so a little bit universe but basic thing dude this was really fascinating anything else to add before you get out of here um the book man like I got a book out on all this stuff called unplugged evolving from technology to upgrade your fitness performance and consciousness isn't on Amazon although all that stuff is there an audiobook available there is but I'm tell you no sorry there's a Kindle good I would highly recommend you don't get it because the Kindle no you mean that's the digital version right why get the hardcopy why because the book is really a guide for how to use some of these training technologies uh-huh in your training and how we can ruin your training how it can help your training so a part of that is the importance of doing a couple of things getting back to nature and how that the physiology behind how that helps as well as this concept of choosing suffering and choosing discomfort and how that's physiologically important for you so a part of the book is built in a way where the photos the layout the quality of the paper is all part of the reading experience they don't have that in like Kindle with the photographs no it's not even close this it's you know it's all black and white the texture the papers do what if you have one of those Kindle HDS the ones that are digital and maybe I mean yeah maybe they're not good but you're saying though but you recommend the hard yeah I mean I don't change I don't really care like right for the experience of yeah it's it's still keep it it's not expensive what's the physiological benefit of getting back to nature oh we have so much yeah it's pretty incredible in terms of everything from visualization or sorry eyesight did you listen to that amazing podcast eyesight yeah radio lab did one on the color blue I didn't hear that one which are called this is a teaser I could tell you the whole story what's it called didn't I don't know the episode find it if you google the radio lab episode on the color blue okay but basically we as humans didn't really recognize the color blue until the Bible what yeah so we had the cones and like the physiology didn't change but we didn't have a word for the color blue until the Bible came along so if you look at anything past there prior to that yeah that's a problem why isn't the sky blue on radio yep exactly so what what they basically identified is we didn't have a separate color for her several word for color blue because we didn't differentiate blue shades so wasn't important for the world because blue doesn't happen very frequently in biology in nature it wasn't until we had textiles and we started printing and making cloth and paper and stuff like that we had all these different dyes and shades of blue so then we developed different shades of blue and different colors so because that we started perceiving and focusing on different shades of blue so now the average person that comes in the room and be able to identify all these different blues or prior to this we didn't care about it we didn't focus on it so we all just saw that as one color blue so things like that are important so what are we paying attention to what are we being conscious of what are we perceiving what are we focusing on has a direct influence on our physiology it's very adaptable to those things so how does that make like going to nature so if we think about it from this way what's happening in the exposure when we're in this artificial environment versus being in the external environment like nature so what are we not being exposed to now that we could be exposed to out in nature the third part of the book is the consciousness aspect which is we talk to a lot of people Tim Ferriss wrote a section or that little interview thing for it Steven Kotler did one as well and they talk about the things like getting into flow state and the stress relief of it and all the other psychological benefits that we have from detaching a little bit from our constant tech exposure dopamine as another great example right so if we look at the dopamine rush that we get from the constant exposure not from the actual tech but from things like oh I want to look at my likes I want to continue look at this that's completely different than when we didn't get out in nature and expose ourselves to physiological elements similar to the cold in the hot and thirsty the hungry I mean you've been out in the woods to stuff before like you know what it feels like going a full day without food or being extremely cold for a few days and then getting back and you're like the for yeah like the sensations like you can't really well you can but it's really beneficial to have ourself exposed to that and it's a problem now but really the book is about I wait 20 years and think about the problem it's gonna be in 20 years when this technology thing only gets more advanced and it takes more portion of our life all right dude one more time what's name of the book unplugged evolved from technology to upgrade your fitness performance and consciousness beautiful thanks man I really enjoyed it that's great conversation there shit and D kalpen ladies and gentlemen


  1. Hi Joe, is Jeff Cavaliere on your list?

  2. I’m trying to find more JRE podcasts that include strength training tips. Can anyone suggest some? Thanks for any and all recommendations!

  3. This is a extraordinary interview, I'm a personal trainer and that just completely shifted my view on training myself and others.
    Thanks JRE and Dr. Andy.

  4. Try running with a mouth full of water.

  5. Dr. Andy “Sooo” Galpin

  6. That was amazing

  7. Joe is such a snobby person.

  8. Hopefully, this doctor (obviously a genius but also obviously obfuscating every question) said something useful after the 42 minute mark …. sorry I just couldn’t take it anymore.

  9. Could someone post the time he talks about twins? Thanks!

  10. 29

  11. so much great information.

  12. Joe “I don’t agree with my guests narrative so I’m gonna be difficult” Rogan

  13. If you ever encounter any crazy keto people and your arguments don’t work on them, just tell them to google this guy!

  14. Underrated episode


  16. Joe “a lot of avocados and coconut oil” Rogan.

  17. Is it just me or does Joe sound super baked on here? He seem to really lag comprehending this dude's philosophy.

  18. I love listening to Joe Rogan's podcast while working out, and whenever he has anyone one talking about health and fitness it is that much better! helps me focus on the task at hand. This week I am down 9 pounds, killing it! I also like Joe's take on most overweight people. It seems if someone has an eating disorder he feels sympathy and understands why someone is obese, but when someone is lazy he kinda puts the responsibility on them. And being held accountable honestly makes me realize how much I need to be the one to motivate and better myself.

  19. ฉันไม่เลยไปใหนคือไม่มีไตรเห็นหลวง

  20. I want a link to that 3 hour video.

  21. This is the best joe rogan podcast ever

  22. 2:14:46 The scientific definition of old man strength! That is flipping awesome and explains a lot of the phenomenon I see in my own training.

  23. The reason your show rocks is BECAUSE you bring contrast to these topics.

  24. No one fucking cares. For fuck sake stop having no many fucking diet people on the show. nNO ONE FUCKING CARES. God damn.

  25. As a yogi keto clinical depression expert i found this helpful

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