In Re NoelPlum: Male/Female Military Physical Fitness Standards

hi y'all in this video I'm going to talk about military physical fitness standards for men for women and for people of different ages and the reason I'm going to do it is because Noah plumb did a video the other day talking about the world air force and how its achieve gender equality for women but not for men because of the physical fitness standards that have to be met for men and for women and how they're different and that bespeaks discrimination in his mind but before I get to that I'm going to preface it with a a likeness to another kind of argument that I have and how this argument this conversation is exactly like this other argument if you've ever discussed the wage gap with the feminists that's what this conversation is like for people who are persuaded that men are being discriminated against because of the physical fitness standards no matter how you explain that on average women make different career choices than men make that they will prioritize family time and comfort over having you know hard manual labor jobs out in the elements or exceedingly long work weeks and that is what explains the disparity in pay you know they're gonna not gonna have any other for a lot of people this conversation is the male equivalent of the wage gap conversation there isn't any discrimination going on and I'm gonna explain why sono plumb some while back I watched a video of yours in which you gave a really great example and over the videos about but the example you used that you made up was just so good it really stuck in my mind and it was about underwater elephants and it was it was really clever it was really whimsical that's very fanciful and so it's stuck on my mind and in that vein I'm going to give you a very fanciful analogy before we get into the actual meat of your video suppose that there were an island of humans somewhere that we haven't discovered yet they all speak English because that is convenient no here because they're gonna be transported to America and they are no more advanced than our ancestors in the 17th and 18th centuries the US they still believe in witchcraft they don't know anything about modern medicine and somehow or other we collect a couple of them were one of them and bring him over to the United States and he wanders into a hospital and is just knocked over by the brutality that is going on there because he knows nothing about the human heart it's illegible system he knows nothing about electricity diagnostic equipment but what he sees and he's a human rights activist so he's gonna get really exercised about this and go around demanding that people come before him and explain how we can tolerate this kind of brutality going on our society speaking to us about the great horrible evil the brutality that's happening in America's hospitals so what he sees is that a lot of cardiac patients come in and after he observes this and he observes some care going on in a cardiac step-down unit or a cardiac care unit he goes back to his people and explains what he saw and he's very exercised very energized and outraged about this kind of behavior and so he explains it this way because he believes that the reason that the EKG has hooked up the purpose that is being tested for there is a person's ability to use their aura to make a certain kind of lines appear on this little paper that's printed out and on the screen and people who don't produce that line sometimes they get a free pass but other times a whole bunch of people come around they hold the person down and they start sticking metal tubes in the person's arm and tubes down the throat and sometimes they take out a knife and they cut the person's chest open and then they break the ribs and they put this device in there that cranks the ribs open and they start with these weird-looking objects they stick them inside the chest and start torturing the person and torturing them torturing and torturing them until he dies occasionally a person who goes in and is unable to produce the right kind of pattern has the bad rhythm is tortured and he realizes the error of his ways and forces his aura to make the right pattern and they go oh good job we will now let you go into wherever it is you go next and you'll be treated well but those who don't comply those who stand their ground are killed and he is outraged by this the reason he's outraged is not because anything improper is going on it's because he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's also quite a bit foolish because what he didn't do is ask someone there what is going on instead he made a whole bunch of assumptions and then decided to go on a big tirade about the great evil that has befallen these poor people who come in there and can't produce the right kind of pattern on the paper and that's the position we're in here with noah plums video so noah plum thinks there are two rebuttals or explanations that are possible that people might bring up in the responses well-crafted argument one is that it is these are only recruits and the standards change later on or something like that and the other is that it's it's gender fair but not gender neutral my argument is neither of those it's that you don't understand what's being tested for and therefore you're drawing erroneous conclusions you're attributing you you are you are precipitously seeing discrimination we're done as a foot and suppose back in the medical setting because I know you're a firefighter you have some training that a person is really exercised about the the cruelty that we inflict upon children when they go to the hospital because an adult when an adult man or an adult woman goes to see the hospital and their vital signs were checked they will let that person get away with only like 12 to 18 breaths per minute but if you're a baby you better be breathing 30 or 40 times a minute otherwise you don't pass that station you are a no-go and there is something wrong with you now why is this the case the reason that these you know the 12 18 or 30 whatever it is the reason that these numbers were chosen they are is not because it was done a priori just something picked out of a hat it's because medical scientists looked around and noticed that people in good health have a particular Retta and at rest respire at about 12 to 18 breaths per minute except for children they breathe much faster and we could also do this with tidal volume the men have to work so much harder per breath they they're they're expected to produce one particular tidal volume and women can get away with doing less but but of course women could also say that that men get away with being heavier and why shouldn't women be able to why shouldn't a 5 foot 4 woman be able to get away of having the same weight on her as a 6 foot 2 tall guy clearly there's some fat shaming going on there and also my god we don't make women bend over when they turn 40 and shove a finger up they're asked to check their prostate look how easy they're getting off battering phrase there I apologize for the reason for this is that there are physiological differences between men and women if if you believe as Noah plum believes that the purpose of the physical fitness test is a combat measure you're going to go you're going to go wrong right from the start the the clue is in the title of the test it is a physical fitness test not a combat readiness test what is being graded there is not a proxy for what a person is going to be like on a battlefield to doing their job in a combat zone there are two ways that you can go about having physical fitness measured you can do it based against the combat directly which is one set of tests or you can do it on a level of fitness the militaries of the world at least in the West work off of looking at a general level of health not combat readiness tests not that there are other things to do for that so what is expected is if you are a man in good physical health who is regularly training regularly exercising strength training regularly working out his cardiovascular system you should be able to do ABC tests in Xyz time why should you be able to do it they didn't pluck the numbers out of a hat they looked at what is it that a fleets on average are actually able to do people who have a moderate level of athletic ability they routinely can perform these types of activities in this amount of time to this standard so if you do that then we say you're in good health and if it's a woman female athletes on average should be able to do this because when you look at the averages these are the types of things they're able to do and so if you are able to do it we then say not a priori you're okay but a posteriori using this as a proxy for a gate a gauge of your general level of athletic ability and your general level of physical health in conjunction with a routine physicals so why do we do this in the united states army since world war ii they've been looking at this balance back and forth and every time they come over the combat readiness test they get rid of and go back to the level of physical fitness as opposed to combat readiness and the reason for it is cost a while back i made a video on the transgender ban and the cost associated with it people like oh it's only gonna be eight million dollars and people don't really try to strive to save eight million dollars out of a budget that large nonsense there is a test coming down in the coming down the pike right now that's going to possibly be implemented in our army in the next year or so and it is going to be a measure of combat performance but there are going to be costs that come along with it one of them is a 250 meter sprint back and forth with 60 pounds of weight they're going to be the kettlebells or whatever they're called and there's a thirty pounds each to equip the united states army with a sufficient number of those is going to be five or six million dollars just to have little weights for this particular test the test we have now cost almost nothing you have to have one scale per unit and a tape measure and a flat surface on which people can run two miles and where they're being circle on straight line it back whatever it is and then you know if you five or six sticks five or six lanes where you have graders are grading the push-ups or press-ups as you call them in england and setups and it only takes like two or three hours to do so it is efficient it's cost-effective and it is a reasonably good proxy for a general level of physical health and the assumption there being that if you're athletically inclined and in a general state of good health you are where you need to be for whatever it is we need to train you for later on there are other costs that come with combat readiness tests some of them some of those many of much of its can be medical the harder you make the test to which you'll have to do to approximately battlefield conditions the likely you are likely are you are to sprain and break ankles and blowout knees break people's backs get head injuries break arms and people fall off bars and whatnot so you're gonna have a lot of medical costs that come along with it you know tens upon tens upon tens of millions of dollars and it's going to accumulate from these added medical costs and so that's why it's taken you know at least since World War two for the army to really get what they think is actually going to work now no aplomb seems to be under the impression because he's mapping onto the military what he knows from civilian life in the fire service that the like the two and a half kilometer run two mile runs what we do here whatever you do any whatever the distance is in England that if you can put your pack on and run those 2.5 kilometres in 13 minutes if you're a woman you're good but if you do in 11 minutes and if you do it in 12 minutes and you're man you still fail and he uses an example of if you have like a twins male and a female and they both run the same course and the woman gets there two minutes later than the guy she passes but he still fails and that's discrimination no it's saying that if you are athletically inclined this is what you should be able to do and if you fail to do that then you're you're either in poor health or your units training standards are inadequate so your commander knows that if it's just use failed that you aren't doing the exercise the exercise program that you're on is not good enough to keep you in an athletic condition and if a lot of other people felt that he knows that the unit you know wide has this problem so you have one thing that's being tested for but because there are physiological differences between men and women it has different raw metrics now if you think about something like the United States Army's Air Assault school if you want to go to Air Assault school you have to have a by the way for our minimum standard in the in the US army you have to have a score of one hundred eighty sixty and sixty points in in all three events to get into Air Assault school you have to have a minimum score of 240 with eighty in each of the three events why is this and here's and here's how you know that what's being tested for is actually somewhat effective and not discriminatory and it's for this reason they've looked at the scores of people who have gone in whether they be male or whether they be female if their score is above 240 240 or above and they get an eighty per in each of the three events they will they have a very high chance of passing the entire course if they come in lower than that they have a very good chance of failing the course and the ones who are lower than that because they have a really good chance of failing they try not to get a trial for this particular course and it works like this if you have a guy who makes a 240 on the women's scale he won't be making a true 40 on the male scale but here's the rub he'd be making like a 190 200 on the male scale something like that remember the exact nothing exactly figures he will still very likely fail the course even though he has done a 240 on the female standard a woman who who a female who does the 240 has a very good chance of passing the course so this proxy that's being used for a general level of athletic ability in a general level physical health serves its purpose without introducing all these additional costs not only in just supplies that need to be purchased but an extra medical care and a reduction in your your labor force because you know they're having surgeries to get knees replaced or fixed or whatever it is so it really does work and when you get to any any of the line units where you have to train on this combat kind of stuff regularly they do that kind of training and they do it and you have like a cycles green amber and red and each one you do different part of the different piece of the progression but when you get into green cycle that's where you're really doing the warfighting kind of stuff and you're moving doing maneuvers and if you think about like a brigade and sending off a brigade to train that right like to MTC that can cost easily 25 million dollars for two weeks a two-week training cycle it is very important that militaries even in England save money where they can and one of the ways that you do it is by having these tests that are particularly invasive that aren't going to impose a lot of undue medical costs that you can avoid and still have a reasonably good proxy and not a lot of specialized equipment to do it but where you need the specialized equipment like the obstacle course when you go to air assault school it's going to be there and when you get there and we're like just like an align here there is one standard for the combat abilities it is an amendment and ER that everyone has to meet and those people who fail to meet it or sent packing you're not good enough go away lady you're not good enough go away sir and Air Assault school is a good example of this because you have the zero day off to a course zero day you do a two-mile run two and a half mile run no two-mile run and Kami's with sneakers and you have to do that in 19 minutes not not the 15 the minimum 15 minutes that men have to do it in they have they have 18 or 19 minutes to complete this 2 miles and then you go do later on you you do a 2 PT and then you go do the obstacle course and there is one obstacle course the obstacle is the obstacle and you either get over it or you don't get over whether you're a boy or whether you're a girl if you get over it you continue going on if you don't get over it you go home there nine events seven which are non mandatory so you can fail one of those but if you fail to you go away and then you have to mandatory events which if you fail either those yeah you have to go home and so when it's climbing up the rope you know whether your boy or girl climb that rope or go home women who score over 240 on their scale do reasonably well at climbing the rope men who would score 240 on the female scale but not 240 on the male scale don't do well on it so it's a reasonably good proxy it's not perfect obviously but it for the cost that goes into it it's reasonably good at what it does everyone who knows anything about combat related tasks knows that the physical fitness test is not a good proxy for those tasks for those combat related tasks it's just a level of fitness and then you you train on those whenever deployments coming up so you're not exposing your you're not increasing the attack surface of these events against your soldiers so that's going on and it's been the problem that the devils you were military and ours how do you strike that particular balance but the new one is going to be a good better proxy for actual combat related tasks because as I think I said earlier in copy and if I didn't I'll say it now in a war zone in the combat zone no aplomb despite you are you put on your your pack and you go run to wherever you get your casualty into your treatment precisely zero people throw on their 60 to 80 pound you know back a kit and go run two miles does not happen once you introduce a load bearing to these people you're walking you're marching the end of the Air Assault course has a very hard ruck march you have you're in full battle round we've got your rubber duckie for those of you don't know rubber duckie is a plastic rifle and plastic m16 but it actually weighs more than the real m16 so there you go so you're in a full combat load you got all your tactical gear on and you've got to do this 12 miles in three hours or less whether you're a boy or whether you're a girl them's the breaks so that is what would that's why that test is there as opposed to saying well you rained or two miles that's good enough it's because you need to know that this person can get from point A to point B in the timeframe under a load and when you want to test that there is only one effective way to do it you have to put that person under a load and you have to go send them out there but you don't go send them out there under that load for that long of a time without first looking at their general level of physical fitness that's why you know we never got a new exercise program they always say consult your physician because if you're not in good physical health and you're not athletically trained you can very easily injure yourself so anybody no one throws on their pack and goes for a two mile jog in a war zone so the new test is going to try to mimic better what's going on so this is 250 meter sprint thing where you run I think is 25 meters with you know 60 pounds and then you have to run sprint back with it and then you have to do you know full-on 25 25 and then anyway I don't I guess I'll see what it looks like when it goes live but it's something like that the time in a combat zone is not measured as a marathon it's measured as very short Sprint's it's not measured as a 15-minute jog it happens in three to five-second intervals it's very important that you understand this know aplomb the the whole of the battle works on three to five second blocks of time and the reason for that is very simple when you are in a place where bullets are flying if you're up for longer than three to five seconds you are what's known as target practice so that's why there's three the three to five second rushing for maneuvering and in a combat zone fires going on which is where the combat medics are going to be running to when they're when they are called out they're going to be going out to casualty it's not from two miles away in a base camp and oh good a job for a couple miles and then get in the middle about no they're gonna have their shit the mores gonna be going on and when someone falls they're gonna be bounding in three to five-second rushes to get there which is why which is what you want to be training for its maximum effort for those three to five seconds up run down and by the way for those of you who might be thinking about joining the army the correct answer to the question how long is a three to five second rush is three to five seconds sergeant just trust me that's the answer believe me you'll learn when you get in scouts honor promise so it it is unfortunate that you've tried to map on the physical standards that are used in a fire service to something that happens in a combat zone not the same I realized that police services fire services emergency medical services have a lot of paramilitary aspects to them but they are only paramilitary aspects they are not like the actual military the military is unique in and of itself there is no other organization outside of a military that is like a military and so I'll end with this whenever you look around and you see a difference between what's happening to Group A and Group B the first thing you should not suppose is that there's discrimination happening the first thing you should suppose is that there are rational actors and there might be a reason for this and if you can't readily identify the reason that doesn't lead to the conclusion therefore someone's invidiously discriminate against someone else what you should do is find someone who knows about that subject like know you could have called me yeah on email call me on email type me text me and you could have asked me enough explained it to you but for those the rest of you when you run into that and you come up with some about what the explanation is and it leads to the conclusion therefore someone is being invidiously discriminated against you're almost certainly wrong so you need to find someone who knows about that subject and ask that person to explain to you why this disparity it will avoid the haven't half the conversations like this on this issue and by the way for feminists out there it would entirely resolve the the discussion over the so-called wage gap by which feminists to mean the wage gap that is caused exclusively by inventors discrimination against women because men hate women because patriarchy musashi bla bla bla bla don't adopt the same mentality of the nutty feminists when you're looking around the world Oh plum it's not gonna serve you well have a great day everybody else and you too


  1. Problem with having different standards for men and women is that they dont fight in different combat zones. That 5'4, 120lbs woman is a lot less likely to be able to drag/carry a 6'0, 200lb man than another man is. That is the issue. This is not sports where there are different weight classes and each gender has its own category, the men and women fight on the same battlefield, therefore need to perform the same task and therefore need to have the same standards period. Decreasing the standard for women is just moronic. Why dont we give women a special test to join a SEAL team, she has to do 2/3 of the work a man does? But, she will need to go on the same missions, do you really think she will be able to do the same work as a man? Sure there are women that are stronger than men, but on average men are much stronger than women. I disagree with you on this 100%, making exceptions for women is not going to make the army better.

  2. Why wold the military look for "physical fitness" and not "combat reediness" in their physical tests? They are not a modell agency. What matters for their personell for doing their job on the physical side is their total ability, not their relative ability. Or maybe the military can save a lot of money by changing their jet fighters for propeller airplanes that has "good performance for being a propeller airplane"? Or changing their tanks to automobiles that is "robust for being a car"? Or changing their warships to dinghys that is "god for being a dinghy, and you can even bring a gun in it"…

  3. This is just so fantastic to listen to, it explains a type of behavior very well. Subbed

  4. I feel that you completely missed the purpose of a fitness test for military work. The point isn't just being in good health, it's being at a certain level of physical capability. In the US Army physical health is important, but that's not all that's being tested with a fitness. If it were just a matter of individual health with no requirement of physical capability you would have a point, but the fitness test is the standard to which the US Army holds it's soldiers in terms of physical ability.

    The difference between physical health and physical fitness is essentially the difference between effort and result. I'm not sure what studies you've found showing that female soldiers that pass their fitness tests are as likely or similar in likelihood to pass field tests and I'd be interested in getting more information on these studies. What I have observed in my experience though is female solders get carried. Whether it's being allowed to go back to the barracks to freshen up halfway though a five day field exercise that wasn't supposed to be interrupted or having a male soldier carry part or all of their gear during a ruck march. Also, these standards and practices don't change after basic training, they stay at the exact same "separate but equal" rates all throughout the military career of every soldier. This results in less physically capable female soldiers being allowed in compared to less physically capable male soldiers not being allowed in. I'm not sure how you could see this as anything other than discrimination.

    If I'm wrong, please tell me where I've erred. Also, if you come up for a justification for the "separate but equal" grooming standards for men in women in the US Army I'm all ears.

  5. Yawn

  6. Wow! excellent perspective. I seriously never looked at it that way, and seriously was looking at a physical fitness test as a combat readiness test. You've changed my mind.

    Very good points. Thank you.

  7. How do you explain the under performance of units with woman in them if there's no difference?

  8. While I take your point, IF women are going to do the SAME jobs in the military as men they should have to meet the same standards as the men. I think that there are many jobs in the military that women can do perfectly well, but those jobs do not include being infantry soldiers. In every test run by the British Army mixed (and all female) sections/squads were always out performed by traditional all male sections/squads. Of course I'm sure not all this was down to fitness and strength alone.

  9. You are right about physical standards being a test of health and fitness. Not combat capability.

    But women cost far more to employ in the military. We should stop allowing them to enlist.

  10. Wow, was not expecting this. Excellent video. I don't get all the delusional dislikes.

  11. Who gives a shit about "fitness"? Either the person is up for the job, or they're not. Superman would outperform everyone even if he had a cold and hadn't left his bed in 3 years, and that should be all that matters.

  12. What's really sad is that Noel Plum gets any attention at all. He's the very personification of a sophist, and not as intelligent or analytical as he believes himself to be. He does have a unique style and voice though, and I think that convinces some people he's an intellectual. Lol. He's a fucking poseur of the worst sort as he sets himself up as some kind of non partisan thinker, lol again. There are much smarter people than Noel Plum on YouTube. This issue isn't a hard one even, fyi. The data is super clear. You have to be an ideologue to support women in combat to begin with, and vastly ignorant of the history of military culture and experiments with women.

  13. The whole cost thing is laughable. The US military budget is $580B per year which is ~$483,333 per service member, of that, it would be $4 per service member for a one time buy. 0.00001%. And then, it is was about health and not ability, no one would EVER use pull up, push ups and sit-up, both have almost nothing to do with a persons health. They measures physical strength, but not health. If physical strength is relevant, it should be equally relevant for men and women.
    And what is the cause for measuring health? Don't want people to died of a heart attack while in combat? Seems reasonable. Percent of heart attacks for people under 45 is just 4%, so we don't need people to do a fast mile time to remove the issue with health related deaths in the army. The women standard for times is more then enough to show any likely lack of illness.

  14. Exactly! We need more women on the front lines, ideally 50/50.

  15. Pointless discussion. If a man was bleeding from between his legs for 5 days a month, and had the joints at his hips and knees bent at a weird angle, he would be considered completely unfit for any job involving physical effort. Why enlisting fit women, when there is plenty of fitter unemployed young guys willing to do the job?

  16. I don't think you're being fair to Noel's position. I never got the impression from his videos that he doesn't understand that the tests are meant to measure the physical fitness of women relative to other women and men relative to other men because there are intrinsic physical differences between the sexes. In fact, I believe that's a large part of the point he was making. I also don't think he's genuinely outraged that women who can't lift as much or run as fast get the same positions as their male counterparts, but rather that the differing expectations is direct evidence of the well-understood dimorphism of our species.

    Still, whether we're talking firefighters or soldiers, males & females who pass their respective tests are going to produce different results when pushed to the same extremes. A female firefighter is going to have a much harder time carrying a 300lb person out of a burning building than a male will, and female soldiers aren't going to be able to move as far or as fast as males when laden with the same burdens. Those kinds of direct one-to-one tests may not come up often in the military, but if they ever did, the fact that we have lower expectations for females will mean that part of a co-ed squad is going to perform more weakly than the rest. Of course, I don't think that means we need to keep women out of those professions or even that we need to have identical physical expectations for both sexes; I just think the point you tried to invalidate holds up to scrutiny.

    Now to watch Noel's response to see if I assessed his intentions correctly…

  17. If women are applying to the same job, they need the same level of performance. Physiological differences be damned, the job at hand with not make itself easier to suit the physical limitations of women. If you're okay with them running the same obstacle course or rucking the same distance with the same load, they why not have them run the same speed for the same distance or do the same amount of push ups? It makes no sense.

  18. Why do the Olympics separate their events into men and women categories?

  19. And the public cost is increased for feminine products including showers changing rooms and bunks

  20. You're a delightful bag of contradictions Justicar. You use exactly Plums argument in your video "Integrating women into…" but now you use the opposite.

    When it suits you the physical fitness standards are about meeting exacting standards that make the difference between life and death, and when it doesn't suit you it is no longer about life and death and is instead about 'general wellbeing'.

  21. So Justicar is always right, that's a given. However NoelPlum is wicked smart and he will always concede when he is soundly refuted (his handicap is that he is European).

  22. Can you provide more information on the rate of failure amongst women at the Air Assault course and the rate of failure amongst men who only achieve a 240 score on the women's PT test, please?

  23. I think Justicar is wrong here although I agree that the test is called a "Fitness test" and tests that. But the result is the important thing here. In the end, the best possible fighting unit is going to be made by picking people independently of the sex (can't use the word gender any more) and will almost always end up being 100% men providing the selection pool is big enough because that's what men are designed for.

    Training up a 50% male and 50% female unit in peacetime is either a waste of money or a national risk depending on how you look at it.

    Justicar and Noel have made different assumptions about why the pass marks in the tests have been made the way they have. I think Noel has made the right choice in that there's an ideological basis for the tests. In the current political climate it's up to Justicar to prove otherwise.

  24. Informative. Long winded though, and you need to catch a breath. Ha… ha ha. Anyways. Try and write your videos. Try and make them as small as possible, without skimping on the details. Cheers!

  25. I've never seen it mentioned that these standards were for basic entry and that there was a secondary test that has the same standard. Thank you, this was very informative.

  26. justicar do you address the field trials done by the marine core where all male units far surpassed gender mixed units in almost every single category ????????

  27. What did you do in the Army? Other than other men.

  28. This is the weakest argument I have ever heard you make.

    If you want to prevent unnecessary injuries, then ban women. Because they break down much faster.

  29. Having been a soldier for an entire year, the tests are different and they shouldn't be. None of the women were as good as the men. They had lower standards and therefore were able to do less. That mean we had to carry their stuff and basicly do their job. Having a universal standard is a must.

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