Diet Doctor Podcast #30 — Dr. Gary Fettke

Welcome to the DietDoctor podcast
with Dr. Bret Scher. Today I’m joined by Dr. Gary Fettke, an orthopedic surgeon in Tasmania Australia, but also more importantly a man
who has suffered for years under investigation and accusation for
teaching people about nutrition, teaching his patients about nutrition. He was basically persecuted because he was trying to help people
by advising them how to eat. And he was effectively silenced for years
but now has been exonerated and it has fueled him just
to teach people more about not only his struggles
and what he went through, but it’s helped him uncover
a lot of the influences behind what we’re told
or how we’re told to eat. And the influences ran deep
with industry and religion, and it’s really surprising,
sometimes it reads like a suspense novel or a fiction movie to really keep you
on the edge of your seat and with conspiracy theories. But as he and his wife Belinda have shown
and talked about many times, it’s there, it’s in writing, it’s in documents
that they’ve uncovered. And it’s a little scary but at the same time the message is that we have to open
our eyes, we have to be aware of outside influence
and we have to question the status quo. And that’s how we move forward
and that’s how we learn. As part of his work he’s written a book, Inversion, One’s Man Answer
for World Peace and Global Health. So as you can see by that title,
quite ambitious, but he’s well on his way
to helping us understand this and giving us the path of how we need
to see things a little bit differently and understand the influence
put upon us. So hopefully this will be a very eye-opening
and enjoyable interview with Dr. Gary Fettke. Dr. Gary Fettke, thank you so much for
joining me today on the DietDoctor podcast. Hello, Bret. Well, it’s been
a pleasure to meet you, I can’t believe with all the circles we run in
that it’s just the first time I got to meet you and it’s like meeting a celebrity, which I’m sure if you would have looked
back three, four years ago to think you’d be in this position,
it’d probably be pretty crazy, wouldn’t it? I’m just a normal guy,
I’ve never meant to become a celebrity. That doesn’t sit well on my shoulders. Even though when I come along
to these meetings people want to catch up and chat. What I have just been doing
is what I had to do. Just do the right thing. And, you know, I’m fairly stubborn
which has been proven over time. Right, which is so amazing. You know, you wonder like why was it you
that this happened to? Why was it you who saw that
as an orthopedic surgeon you weren’t helping patients
in the way that you could? Why was it you who started talking
about nutrition with your patients and then got basically silenced
and muted by the societies? But because it was you,
because you’re stubborn enough, because you’re a fighter,
because you believe so passionately, you were the one who was able to push
through and come out the other side showing that you were right. So what is it about you
that made you survive this process? The first thing is I recognized the issues
of sugar and carbohydrate loading, particular in diabetics, relatively early. So if you came out now as a doctor
and said, you know, I’m criticizing the amount of sugar
in the patients load in the hospitals, you wouldn’t be nearly as much trouble. So first of all I recognized that and then I
started talking about it and then I got involved in social media
and that’s when I got into trouble because I was starting to become a voice. And the other thing is that my message was, let’s reduce sugar for patients,
particularly in diabetics. You know, I questioned hospital food, but the most important thing was
that I wasn’t selling anything. I didn’t have a book, I didn’t have a business
that was depending on it. We did start a dietetic service
down the track, but that was because no one else was giving
that support that was required. So because I didn’t have anything
and I was actually the coal fire and literally looking at the end complications
of diabetes and obesity and lifestyle disease whether or not it’s arthritis,
as it was evolving in my practice, a significant amount
of diabetic foot surgery. So it’s pretty hard to argue against me if I am actually the surgeon
doing the amputations, you know, I’m actually seeing the end product
and making a noise about it. So as it turns out, the cereal industry,
the Dietitians Association in Australia I think found me as a threat because
I actually had an answer for the problem, but it was actually counteracting completely
the opposite of what they were promoting. Yeah, let’s talk about that for a second. As an orthopedic surgeon,
one of your big money makers, one of the big things that you do
on a regular basis is joint replacements in people
who are overweight and obese and that’s what has contributed
to a lot of their joint disease. You amputate toes and feet for people
who have diabetes and non-healing ulcers. That’s what a big part
of what orthopedic surgeons do. So why were you the one to say,
“Wait a second… there’s a better way to do this to prevent
all this, to prevent people from getting here”? What did you see differently? Well, like a lot of doctors who
have embarked on the low-carb pathway, you do it for yourself first of all. So I am 20 kg lighter than I used to be. I was pre-diabetic, I had a malignant
pituitary tumor about 20 years ago, I had psoriasis, I had a sort
of inflammatory joint disease. So I ran my own pathway
to my own health. Right. So adopting low-carb,
as it turns out LCHF now, but it started
with the whole sugar issue first of all. So I had the benefits from myself and then I started saying, “If it works for me
it’s going to start working for my patients.” In between times I experimented
on the family and on my theta team. So I didn’t go straight to my patients. And it became– it was so obvious
that this is what we had to do. Again I started speaking out about it. I come from a background
of actually being proactive on patients taking care
of themselves first of all, so if you go back 25 years,
I wouldn’t operate on smokers. And I used to give a paper
called, “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.” For and so the if you looked
at the early signs of that it was smoking has deleterious effects on
cardiovascular tree, our healing potential, and it’s now completely mainstream that we should be avoiding major surgery
in people who are smoking. So the next thing from that was
that I started avoiding doing surgery. In fact refusing to do major joint
replacements on patients that were too fat. That’s a politically incorrect term
to use now, but that was the scenario. So I drew a line in the sand with patients
with a BMI more than 35 and the literature is there
that really supports that stand. Because of higher complication rates– Well, first of all if I reduce their weight,
they don’t need the surgery. If they do come to surgery,
they have higher complications rates. And that’s not just anesthetic,
that’s theta time, that’s wound issues, that’s malalignment
issues with joint replacements. And longevity– so they don’t tend
to last as long. Were your colleagues down the street
just perfectly happy to operate on those people that you turned away? I wouldn’t use the word “perfect”, but they were happy to continue
on that pathway. And so I’ve had patients that wouldn’t
adopt what I was recommending and go to my colleagues down the road. Now I’m okay with that. But if you don’t offer them the option
and the choice to avoid that surgery and the same thing
with bariatric surgery nowadays. We have good options, and when I hear bariatric surgeons saying,
well, they tried dieting, I say, “Have they actually tried LCHF?” And they go, “Oh, no, that doesn’t work.”
And I say, “Actually it does.” When people say they have tried
everything and failed and I’m sure that’s what they say to you
when they come; “I’ve tried dieting and it doesn’t work.” And you say, “Well, let’s explore this
a little bit more.” So what have you seen? I mean I’m sure you’ve seen
some impressive changes in people who have adopted LCHF. One of the fascinating things
in orthopedics is that people actually– a lot not everyone, they lose their arthritis
pain before they lose weight. I have had patients with dramatic
improvements in their joint arthritic pain within 10 to 14 days. I can remember a fellow who said, “I’ve come to you because I know
I’m overweight and I’ve got arthritis and I need a joint replacement.” He said, “I’ve come to you because I know
you won’t operate on me straight away and you’re going to tell me to diet;
I just need help.” So he went and saw a dietitian
that was completely on board with it and then rang up 10 days later and said,
“I have lost all my arthritis pain.” He’d lost it all. -In 10 days?
-In 10 days. That’s remarkable. So if you actually through
that concept out there, then there’s 1000 of N=1 stories
of people losing their pain or disproportionately losing their pain
before weight loss. The weight loss comes along
and it’s got this added benefits but surely on the long term. But I’m still doing joint replacement on
patients who had done LCHF. But they are coming back to me one year
down to track or two years down the track they hobble in and they get better quicker. And they are going into training– I often say, you are in training
for joint replacement. Do this, try that, get the fitness up,
do a bit of exercise. And I think that’s a good point because sometimes we have to be careful
about overstating the benefits we can get. It’s not like it’s a cure-all
and it’s going to reverse all our arthritis, but it can certainly delay it,
it can certainly improve recovery, it can certainly improve function leading
into and after a joint replacement. And those seem like fairly reasonable
conclusions that you can draw but when the literature doesn’t exist, when the 10,000 person study about half
getting LCHF, half getting joint replacement, when that doesn’t exist yet,
but the clinical N of one’s exist, you find it hard to convince other surgeons
about what you’re seeing? I mean like once you see it,
you can’t un-see it, so why doesn’t everybody see it? Well, that’s part of my talks coming up is about why as a medical community,
we are not seeing it. And that’s complex in itself. So what we can do is actually let patients
set the example and I go back to the general practitioners. You know, in the orthopedic meetings you
keep standing up and saying the same thing. And now I am asked to speak
about the topic. You know, at an orthopedic meeting,
surgical meetings coming up and I get a voice now. So there’s an interest there in surgeons;
we had a chat beforehand– some years ago I gave a talk
on don’t operate on obese patients. And I gave 200 papers, you know, a
summary of those and against my argument
there were three papers. And so I actually think that if we’re actually
operating on obese patients unnecessarily by doing joint placement– Bear in mind that in Australia 90%
of knee replacements are done on patients
who are overweight and obese. 90%! So at least people stop doing that
because there goes their income, there goes their livelihood there goes
a big percentage of their practice. Look, I did exaggerate that, okay? The last year’s figures it was 89.9%,
but let’s say 90%. And 74% of total hips are done on patients
who are overweight and obese. And increasingly on young women. So that’s a demographics,
that’s from our joint registry. And we’ve got a problem. I mean that’s not an issue for my career, but the next generation
of orthopedic surgeons will be operating on those people
when their joints fail. And they are going to fail at a higher rate…
we’ve already got that data. So they are going to fail at a higher rate
on younger people.. It’s just another layer of the tsunami
of lifestyle related diseases it’s going to be upon the next generation
of medical professionals. It’s interesting to think
about how the demographics are changing unless we can impact it and reverse it
which is a big part of your message, isn’t it? I’m just saying if your tire
is worn out on the car you’re still going to have it replaced, but if you drive it around carefully
and you take a few rocks out of it, it will last longer. And then when you actually have
your surgery it’s going to be easier on the patient,
easier on the surgeon, easier on the system. They’re going to be in the hospital
less time. And that’s an interesting point,
a lot of people may not think about that. There’s the question of do you need
the surgery or do you not, but also how much time is it going to take,
how much is the rehab going to take, what kind of impact is that going
to have on your life…? Those are important questions as well that a lot of people probably don’t think
as much about. Little simple things,
I’ll get back to smoking, that patients who are smokers
spend longer time in the recovery ward. The same thing actually goes
with obese patients. They have longer time for the anesthetic–
longer recovery times. Much heavier nursing problems
in the hospitals. Staffing problems, you’ve got to have extra
staff on board to move them around and you got higher worker’s compensation
breaks because people get back injuries. A snowball effect, isn’t it? Another interesting thing that
is coming around is in pain management. It’s not in acute pain,
but chronic pain management. It’s the whole role
of the ketogenic diet in that. So it’s again anecdotal. But I’ve got patients
who were running low-carb and keto and they seem to have less postoperative
pain in their surgery. Why do you think that is? Do you think it’s something
about the ketones, something about the sugar and the carbs
or a combination of both? I think both. I mean I use the example that if you give
kids sugar at a party, they get hyper and then
a few hours later they– Crash. Another side is
what would happen to society if we gave everyone on the planet sugar
at one time. Would have anxiety, depression, anger,
mental health issues. And guess what?
We’ve got all of those. But if we look at it also from the ketogenic
aspect of neurodegenerative disorders… That nerves can run just as happily on
a glucose load as they can on a ketone load. So it seems to have a beneficial effect
in the neurodegenerative disorders. And there are a few papers out there now
in pain management talking about ketogenic diets. So again, I use those to my patients; I say, “I can’t force this upon you,
but here’s a non-drug alternative.” Right. And these are all about giving your patients
tools to manage their own condition. Right, so you mentioned
a non-drug alternative and that brings up another whole big topic
that you’ve been very vocal about… So when you’re promoting
a non-drug alternative in a culture that is sort of fueled
by drug companies and drug money you are going against some very big forces
that probably don’t want you to succeed. And you have turned– not only as a physician but you’ve turned
into an investigative reporter, you along with your wife Belinda, to uncover a lot of sort of the beginnings
of an anti-meat campaign of people with vested interest
in not promoting LCHF. And it’s sort of fascinating
and almost unbelievable what you found. So I know it’s a big topic but summarize
some of the basics of what you found that shocked you and has certainly
shocked a lot of people who you’ve been talking to about it. I think the science behind LCHF
is actually sound. It’s biochemistry, it’s the stuff that
we learn in the first 50 pages of textbooks. It’s not in the fine print. So I often describe
that eating real food, LCHF is if you eat food fresh
that’s local and seasonal, then by definition it is low in carbohydrate
it doesn’t have added sugars, it doesn’t have lots
of carbohydrate in it, it has health fats in it and
it has protein in it. So the definition of real food is LCHF whereas the definition of the standard diet
comes out of a paper bag or a plastic bag. And that’s unhealthy. So all I’ve been arguing and all– discussing with yourself and others
in the scientific world, is we’re just talking about biochemistry and
real food can’t buy definition be unhealthy. And Belinda made this observation when myself and Tim Noakes in particular
were under investigation for recommending real food. She said, “You guys are going blue
in the face, but it’s going to be something else.” So it wasn’t until she started
to investigate my case because I was clearly under investigation
for a few years. She come across that the expert witness that somehow mysteriously
appeared into my case was actually someone pretty high up
in the nutrition world who was working for a cereal company
at the time. So how come that the breakfast cereal
industry got involved in my case? And it took another three years
but towards the end of 2018 Belinda came across 600 pages
of internal emails from the Australian breakfast
cereal industry and in them it had that the concepts
of paleo and low-carb were affecting cereal sales,
profits were down and these seven people
were to be targeted. Now I ended up being
the only Australian doctor on that list who was meant for targeting. And then actually in the documents
it had details as to which media people
are going to be working with newspapers and magazines
across all forums to actually target those people
who are promoting low-carb and paleo. So that’s scary stuff. And this is actually
not some load document. This was actually the briefing document to the CEOs of the heads
of the cereal industry in Australia. So Kellogg’s, Nestle,
Sanitarium, Freedom Foods and the head of the Food
and Grocery Council. Now I am happy to say that because I have actually presented those
individual names to send an inquiry, calling them out. And that’s Australia, but those five CEOs,
or four of those, report directly to the CEOs
here in the US. So this is the cereal industry, you know, the biggest corporates at the bottom
of that food pyramid that promote the cereals and grains. They are actually in a working relationship
with the Dietitians Association, they’ve been paid to actually promote
the benefits of sugar and cereal. And the Dietitians Association in Australia
just like you in the US are the ones that effectively write
the dietary guidelines. So here we got the Cereal Industry directly
paying the Dietitians Association not only to be involved in targeting
of those voices against it, you know, talking about preventive health but they are also the ones
writing the dietary guidelines. So if you think that
that started opening Pandora’s box… Now it took some years to work out, but along the way Belinda’s investigation
has completely uncovered and effectively unraveling what’s happening
with my education, your education and the future of health education along nutrition lines. So the long and the short of it
is we’re going back in history and if you look at the history
of the dietary guidelines, they have changed over time…
they used to be meat and dairy based and over the last 100 years the dietary
guidelines in Western society became cereal biased, anti-meat, anti-dairy and rapidly approaching
vegetarian and vegan. So the way people ate
before there were guidelines was very heavy based in meat
and low in grains. I think the early 20th century one
was meat and dairy based. But at it evolved…
in 1972 the McGovern report and in 1992 the Food Pyramid and we’re sort of seeing the MyPlate
here in the US, but effectively it’s again a cereal based,
anti-meat, anti-dairy, approaching vegan vegetarian. And when you look at the history of that,
that’s where we have spent a lot of time. So set from the dietetics,
the nutrition aspect, the dietary guidelines
were started effectively by the Dieticians Association of America… The American Dietetic Association in 1917. The founder of that Association
was a woman by the name of Linda Cooper. Linda Cooper was a protégé
of John Harvey Kellogg. So she was working
for John Harvey Kellogg, she effectively started
the American Dietetics Association, she then wrote the textbooks
for the next 30 years for dietetics, which formed the basis of dietetics
and nutrition for the world. First of all the model
of the Dietetics Association as well as the textbooks became that
not only for the US, but for Canada, the United Kingdom,
Australia, South Africa, New Zealand. So the Western organizations
all followed suit and effectively the cereal industry
was right there at the beginning. We like to think that this was altruistic
and just trying to benefit society and tell them the best way to be healthy, but once you have industry involved
you can’t assume it’s altruistic anymore. And why should the industry be involved? There’s no reason industry should… with a bias and with a vested interest should be involved in telling people
what to eat. But somehow the two got combined
very early and have never really separated. Well, they haven’t separated at all. And of greater concern is that the basis
of cereal isn’t grounded in science, it’s actually grounded in ideology. Right, so that’s the other risky part. Not only is the industry but now we’re
bringing in religion and ideology, another thing that has no place in telling us
how to be healthy really. Well, John Harvey Kellogg and
Linda Cooper were both vegetarians, both members of the Adventist Church. And the Seventh-day Adventist Church
have been right there at the beginning, heavily promoting their concept and they are promoting
the Garden of Eden diet, which is vegan. Cereal based, anti-meat,
anti-dairy… Vegan. And effectively they have been influencing
the dietary guidelines for 100 years. So the people involved in writing the vegetarian mandate
for the American Association and for the Australian dietetics guidelines
were effectively all vegan/vegetarian. And the American one eight out of the nine
were actually Seventh-day Adventists. Eight out of nine? Eight out of nine were vegetarian, vegan, five of the nine were Adventists and the other person who was neither
vegan nor vegetarian nor Adventist was working
for the processed food industry. So here we’ve got major influence
at the highest levels which has actually come
from religious ideology. And the ideology– they were
well-intentioned, I’ve got no problem. This is not antireligious. This is you got the belief, then I’m very
happy if you have that belief. However make it grounded. But if you want to start promoting that and influencing that
for the whole population make certain is grounded on science
and not on an ideology for salvation. But that’s what’s so interesting
is that the narrative has changed. Because they can’t say
it’s because of religion and because it’s for salvation. Because a lot of people aren’t going to be
open to that message, so the message has sort of changed. Now it was health, then it was environment
and then it’s ethics. So the narrative keeps changing but I guess
one of the points you’re saying is still all comes from that
ideological backbone, right? They are not so much pro-cereal
as they are anti-meat. That’s the basis
of the Ellen G. White’s prophecies And her belief is that meat
is one of the– if you consume meat, that is as close to demonizing yourself
as you can possibly do and you will not get salvation
if you do that. And that’s the backbone
of their belief system. So the terms, “Meat causes violence,
causes masturbation, causes cancer”, those terms are coming around in the early–
no, the late 19th century, the 1860s, 1870s, the meat causes heart disease
came up in the 1900s. Essentially we worked out that meat
doesn’t cause masturbation and the meat doesn’t really cause violence so those messages
are the 19th century ones. So then we got the next message,
the meat causes cancer, which continued to come along. And if you look at the data, that’s very poor Association data
for a couple of cancers with low relative risk ratio
but nonetheless get over marketed. And so that narrative
of fat causes heart disease is actually part
of the meat causes heart disease. It’s whatever they can use to try
and travel that path. So we’ve now moved back
to meat causes cancer. Now the latest one
is meat causes environmental harm. It’s all a complete nonsense. But you got to realize that the backing
of this is coming from a religious ideology for salvation, not for health. Yes but since we don’t hear much, I mean beside from when you
and Belinda started talking about it, nobody was bringing this up
about religious salvation, so I think a lot of people probably say,
“that’s not true” anymore. I mean now it’s more just maybe industry
and people promoting the environment, but it sounds like you would argue,
no, the ideological process is still there. I will argue both. First of all the Seventh-day
Adventist Church has been on this bandwagon
for a long time ago. People go, oh, they are only a small group, but they are the second-biggest educator
in the world after the Catholic Church. The number of schools they have
is just at the top of hill, so over 1400 schools and a couple
of hundred universities around the world. They’ve got enormous amount of funding. Just in the US they’ve got 28 hospitals
in Florida alone. They run 28 hospitals in Florida alone!? And so they have this ongoing message
coming through. The other big issue is that they spend
a lot of time in the developing world on missionary work and promoting
the message, their health message and they use that
as the entering wage of the church. So they are not coming along saying,
we’re going to give you salvation, we’re going to give you health…
come along to our way of eating.” Which is their big promotional one
called The Chip program and it’s been introduced in countries like Fiji
it’s just adopting it, the entire country. I mean the Polynesians,
the last thing they need is more cereal and grains
for their obesity and diabetes epidemic. But it’s also being introduced in the US
via insurance companies. Chip program is being adopted
and it’s effectively a vegan program with a background of religious ideology they
use as an entering wedge into the church. And so it’s right there, front and central. And the important thing is
they are not hiding any of this. If you actually look at this stuff,
and last year, in 2018, they published a 20 page article
in a Journal called Religion acknowledging everything I’ve just said. They are very proud of it,
they’ve got a health agenda for the world. That’s the religious ideology,
they are promoting that because they need to get the message
to every corner of the world, “every tongue”, I think
is actually in their– Every tongue! And then for Christ’s return. Now, I’m okay for you to have your belief but it shouldn’t be forced
upon the world’s population, both in our eating habits
and therefore agricultural practices. The other thing that’s involved,
that the SDA are involved in, is that they effectively own
the cereal industry of the world. And the soy industry
and the alternative meat industry. They were right there at the beginning. The first meat alternatives were in fact
invented by John Harvey Kellogg. Really? The soy was effectively brought from
China by a fellow, Harry Charlie Miller. He was an Adventist missionary
and he started the whole… soy plants in conjunction
with Adventist outposts in China. But effectively he brought soy
back to the US. And the soy infant formula
was promoted primarily by him. And now we say soy and infant formula
every day on every supermarket shelf. You’ve got to realize that they
were there at the beginning. And so that’s still there. So they’ve got not only their own push
at an ideological level, they have also got
their own food industries. And now they’re getting funding
in venture capital and Silicon Valley involved in backing
these fake meat products. And that’s sort of a little more dangerous because now once the money gets involved
it can start to snowball. And I saw a Twitter post you made about, “can you identify which is fake meat burger
and which is dog food?” And they looked very similar, didn’t they? Well, you couldn’t pick them. The Silicon Valley have come in on
as the tail end of it. I suppose probably not the tail end of it…
I will use the term entering wedge.. One of the big issues we see
is that the medical education, so the current education model
is being heavily pushed, that we need to travel down the pathway
of lifestyle medicine. -Sounds great?
-Sounds great. You know, let’s exercise more
and eat well and get plenty of sleep and sunshine
and have good communication skills. But the nutrition side of that
is to move towards vegan. And that is in fact most people don’t realize
that lifestyle medicine is the Adventist Church. So in all of its different names… You know, started as the Christian
Association of lifestyle medicine and ultimately this moved through a series
of name changes pages but it’s widespread around the world… and that has a good message however. It’s about medical education
and pushing that pathway. Side by side with that
is the term ‘exercise is medicine’ which is actually trademarked and one of the initial founding members
of that trademark of exercise is medicine is Coca-Cola. So in this strange relationship
we’ve got these two arms coming together in medical education…
look up LifeMed, which is education… The co-concept of education now
being controlled by lifestyle medicine, pushing a vegan plant-based agenda
and Coca-Cola coming in and they started becoming involved
with lifestyle medicine in 2010, started coming in significant relationships
in 2012 and the funding pedal
was pressed in 2014, 2015. So we’re now seeing this whole rise
of the vegan agenda and they don’t realize that the propaganda
is being fed by the lifestyle medicine, Adventist church message,
Garden of Eden diet with the backbone of the processed food
industry led by Coca-Cola. Great marketing. And they’ve come together,
but the trouble is here in the US. You’ve got now eight universities
are adopting this lifestyle medicine plant-based diet
as their medical education. And they don’t understand I’m sure
the religious part of it, they don’t open their eyes
to the industry part of it. They think this is a healthier way
for individuals. I want to give people
the benefit of the doubt and say they legitimately want
to help patients get better and help people lead healthier lives, but we sort of have to pull back the curtain
and show them what the science says and where this is coming from and they have to question
why is Coca-Cola involved. I mean these things need to be
more front and center. The processed food industry is well-
positioned to continue the vegan agenda. Well, they will profit greatly from that,
won’t they? We have come across some documents again from the Adventist Church
and their food arm food, saying that they’re expecting
a 25% increase in their profit because of the adoption of their vegan
Garden of Eden diet by millennials. And so again it’s all about
being open in the discussion. I am very happy for you to present… Here is my educational package
to teach to my medical students, but I come from religious ideological
background promoting this for salvation and I have the backing
of the processed food industry which is going to help their profit line. I mean, you wouldn’t buy into that,
would you? No. Yet we have got
an entire generation out there who are taking up this agenda because it’s based on your animal welfare
animal-rights and questionable
environmental statistics. And Peter Ballerstedt’s work
is just phenomenal. And I’ve said to Peter… What I’m talking about
is I don’t trust Peter either. I think he’s got a cold counterargument. And there’s another side of the coin when you look at the whole
environmental impact. Let’s look at both sides of it
rather than just taking for granted what you are in cowspiracy
of folks overnight. Because that’s clearly
an agenda driven one. And you’ve got to realize that that agenda is
coming from the garden of Eden diet, Adventists and the food industry Coca-Cola. We are not conspiratorial, we looked at this
for a couple of years before… we sought counsel from other people
and said we lost the plot on this. And all we’re doing is having it ratified. And then last year as I said the Seventh-day
Adventist church came out very proudly saying, “We are behind this.” Because they have an agenda,
they believe in it. Yeah, and it sort of leads me
to think about the Eat Lancet campaign. Because it seems like
that was the attempt to now say this is science-based
and evidence-based. And that’s what eat Lancet was supposed
to be, an evidence-based report to tell us all why we should adopt
a vegan lifestyle. But when you dissect it,
you can see the evidence isn’t there, their recommendations are not based
on high-level quality evidence. So if anything I would hope
that would hurt their mission more once people realize that it was basically
a well-funded media campaign that wasn’t based in science, but yet I don’t
think their message is getting out there, but that the message
has been propagated more as look at this evidence-based approach
now to being vegan. And that seems pretty problematic when
you start to distort what the evidence says. Scientific evidences are thrown
out the window I think nowadays. It’s completely and utterly biased. Eat Lancet had significant funding
behind it from the food industry
and the pharmaceutical industry. Yeah, why would pharmaceutical industry
be involved there? That again that makes no sense
except they are going to profit from it, but they should have
no seat at the table there. None whatsoever. And it’s disappointing to see that Lancet
actually published it in the first place because it didn’t require
a lot of review of the articles to rely… Those were just poor articles
and very biased. I think it’s worth taking another step
backwards to the Adventist health studies which they have quoted over and over
of the benefits of vegan/vegetarian. Were flawed. And so when you actually look into them
and they’re quoted over and over… But the Adventist studies were done by
people affiliated with the Adventist Church that re-quote their own articles. So those three Adventist studies
last time we looked at them had been re-quoted each time
by themselves over 400 times. I mean 1200 re-citations by themselves. So let’s say I write an article
and then I cite myself from that article and I cite myself from the article twice. All of a sudden they’ve compounded. But if you keep telling everyone that your
Adventist health studies are fabulous… But the first two Adventist health studies,
the definition of vegetarian was that as long as you didn’t have meat
more than once a week. Yeah, once a week. And the definition of vegan was as long as you didn’t have meat
more than once a month. Some people say they’re perfectly
healthy on a vegan diet or vegetarian diet. You don’t realize that it still involves
some meat by those definition. And when you actually dissect those
studies and have a good look at them there are other studies showing
that other populations not just Adventists actually outlive them. So right to the quoting of the Blue Zones
and Okinawa… I have actually gone back
to those Okinawan articles and they are actually eating pork. They are eating pork;
they have the Sardinia pig and they are goat farmers and a lot there that didn’t come up
in the Blue Zones. There’s a lot of meat actually out there. And I’m all for having community
and spirituality and togetherness and sunlight and exercise and rest and living by the seasoned
and sleeping by the sun… but don’t tell me it’s because
you’ve got a plant-based diet when the other variables
are just so important. And particularly that plant-based diets
being supplemented with meat. Right. Does it seem like just too daunting though,
too overwhelming that there’s too much behind this mission
now, too much behind the push, that it’s like we are fighting
a losing battle? Or you think there’s something we can do to show people to open their eyes
to where this is coming from and help them see
the other side of the equation? That’s why we’re having chat today. Because if we both thought it was hopeless
we would’ve stopped. I have children, we’ve got a grandson… my future is already determined,
but his isn’t. Some of the people listening or watching
might have seen that Pixar movie Wally. And I think it’s brilliant, I often refer
people to go and watch Wally. Very, very completely on the mark in that
we are as a society right now are fat, we are overhanging in our chairs,
we are lethargic, we are sick, we are medicated to the hill. And I honestly think this is completely
and utterly unsustainable. And we are about to come over a precipice, you know, it won’t be a social decline,
it will be a social cliff; we will go over this,
it will be really ugly in the next 10 years. But in that movie, the Greenleaf,
that’s my grandson. You know, I’m hoping
that he will be armed with health. He will understand
he needs to eat real food. To explain that for people who haven’t
seen the movie, what do you mean by that? Well, in the movie–
now, go and watch it everyone… But in the movie effectively
mankind’s been wiped off the planet, we have destroyed our planet
underneath us and there is a group of survivors
which is still floating around in a spaceship trying to find a spot to actually live. But they actually realize if you actually go
back to Earth and you do it right then there’s a future again on Earth. And so therefore I– Every economic marker,
every health marker I look at is we’re going to have a massive change
in population health. It’s scary. However I’m not depressed. I’ve suffered from this thing
called hyper pragmatism. So I’m just being pragmatic about it;
this is happening before us. You can see it when you walk down street,
see it in your family or community. See it in the hospitals…
We need to do something about it. It’s going to be messy but let’s prepare the next generation
for making the difference. And that’s the education I want to see. And my problem… me and Belinda, we see that the education model
that’s been introduced in the US being pushed in Australia. You know, going back some years, I think
it was being pushed into my own university and as it turns out my medical students, we’re going to be having
this new curriculum thrust upon them. And that’s when I came out
and started talking to them about… Actually that’s sort of nonsense. I’m talking about real food,
LCHF, blah, blah, blah. I didn’t realize that I had actually trodden
on a hornets nest in my own hospital to my own students. But they were the group that were having
this new experimental teaching upon them. That’s all been gone by the wayside, but I
think that’s part of why went into trouble… You weren’t just affecting patients, you were influencing the next generation
of physicians. And industry is going to see that as a big
problem that they need to squash. But where we are now is, you know, have we squashed Eat Lancet
as it being questioned? Yes, but that’s only the first phase;
it’s going to keep coming. It’s up to everyone to start calling out–
let’s call out the science, but see who’s behind it,
who’s pushing it, because we’ve seen the results of the last major dietary change
intervention, the public health policy. And that was the introduction
of the low-fat high carbohydrate diet. We have had that social experiment
for the last 40 years, 50 years. The next thing which is being pushed
literally down our throats is the plant-based vegan,
anti-meat, pro-cereal… as Belinda says, with a side of Coke. Brought to you by Coke with a smile. And it’s not our fault
if you’re fat and sick; it’s because your lifestyle,
and that you haven’t exercised enough. Now we’ve got that whole concept
ingrained in their psyche; you are fat, therefore you are lazy. Well, it’s not
what we’ve been eating, but we have convinced everyone
that it’s because they are lazy. Yeah, so we need to get rid
of that industry influence and get rid of the religion influence and get
rid of the pharmaceutical industry influence when it comes to educating people,
educating our future doctors and the public. But how do we do that?
That’s a much harder question. Because it’s a free market society and they’ve got their fingers
so deep in people’s pockets that they don’t know how to get out of it. And if you stand up against them,
you get into trouble. Because, you know,
I refuse to follow the guidelines. My patients in hospital
with diabetes out of control were being given
three serves of ice cream per day. And I said, this is ridiculous and I was told
they are the guidelines. That’s sort of the beginning of my journey
against the system. I said, well, the guidelines are wrong then. And they said, those are the guidelines, we can’t change them,
we have to do as we are told. And I said, okay I’m going to try
and change the guidelines. So what do we do?
Well, we stand up, we start questioning. One of the problems in medicine is we are educated
on this read, repeat, reward concept. It does not suit us as trainees and as doctors
to read something and then question it. Because then you get into trouble and then
you are reported to the medical board because you are saying I can’t recommend
ice cream to my patients. And that’s literally what happened. I’ve got reported because I said
this is ridiculous… stop serving my patients ice cream. And that is such an important point,
the read, repeat, reward, because how are
other industries educated? How are engineers taught?
They are taught to question everything. To analyze things from different sides,
to try and find why one solution is wrong. In medicine we’re not taught that. We’re not taught
to be critical thinkers like that. Well, we used to be until 1910. What happened in 1910? The introduction of the Flexner report. So before 1910 we had a much more
holistic approach to medicine. And in 1910 Rockefeller of oil
and Carnegie of steel commissioned Abraham Flexner
to do the Flexner report which is actually
to look at the medical education. And it became a two-way fight
almost at that time between William Osler,
who is one of the fathers of medicine, who believed that we should be not
medicating our patients, we should be bedside teachers
and bedside carers and he was very much against
the experimental and drug model. But Flexner came in with this agenda
to actually change medical education. It’s a fascinating story. And ultimately the Flexner report went
through, big-money won out and the model of medical education became one of that let’s lab test
and medicate. We stopped the bedside caring,
we’ve stopped the holistic interactions. We didn’t stop them completely. Only minimize them. And out of that model,
because Rockefeller came along and supported those institutions that
actually adopted the model, 50 medical schools around US and Canada
were closed in the subsequent years. And those ones that remained effectively
adopted that model. And that was to medicate and test. And along with that, which was a burgeoning time
for the pharmaceutical industry, development of drugs was the birth
of the modern pharmaceutical industry. So therefore all around 1910 to 1917 we had the birth
of the pharmaceutical industry, of the nutrition science
which is not science at all… It’s about palatability, marketability,
shelf-life profit. We had the two that came together
and so I call that generational education. So since 1910, 1917 we have had
the pharmaceutical industry educating us on how to treat our patients. We’ve had the food industry telling us
or educating us, I’ll use a softer term, on what to eat. And we’ve lost the ability to think because
they then developed the guidelines, the guidelines say,
stick within these parameters… But the guidelines at the best,
only are useful for the median group. Let’s say two thirds of the population. That leaves a third of the population
out to the side, which the guidelines don’t fit. But you, as a medical, have to prescribe
according to the guidelines for the median group. That means potentially we are doing harm
to at least one third of the population. Well, you could even reverse that and say if the guidelines were designed
for healthy people and now our society
is two thirds unhealthy, so you can sort of flip that on your head
in terms of who that represents. But I think it’s such an important
take-home lesson, whether people can take home
from this discussion that, you know, we should not be vegan
and we should eat meat or whether it’s healthier
or environmentally sound… The most important lesson
is question what you’re told, question the norm,
question the guidelines. Because the people who’ve put those out
haven’t questioned the influences, we need to do that and whether you agree or not
you have to at least ask the questions. And if you then ask the questions
and still agree with them, that’s fine,
you’ve done your own due diligence. But we can’t just accept things
on face value, we can’t do that anymore, because the role of industry,
the role of money, the role of religion is too deeply rooted,
that’s what you and Belinda have taught me that those roots go so deep that we just
have to start asking the questions and never stop asking the question;
that’s the most important lesson. Generational education is
you don’t question your teachers. Nor did they question their teachers before. That’s where we are at now. We’ve just been scared and afraid
to question our teachers. And you’re absolutely right, question. So if your doctor says,
“I want you to take this medication”, don’t be afraid to say, “Why?” And when you adopt an LCHF,
low-carb healthy fat lifestyle, the very first question I get
from doctors all the time is, “I’m worried about
the patient’s cholesterol.” And the patients get that,
they are intimidated by that. And I have one really, really simple reply
for the health professionals, doctors and so, “What is cholesterol?” And the scary thing is 99% of doctors
cannot answer the question. Just say, what’s cholesterol… And unless your doctor can come up with at least five things
which cholesterol is there for, then don’t take his advice or her advice. Or at least question, because unless
we’re questioning the doctors, then the doctors
aren’t going to go and learn. Because they are just following
the guidelines. And I did question. And when you start looking
at nutrition science, or “non-science” or “non-sense”,
it’s a house of cards. And that’s what all my journey has been
in the last 10 years. I press the pack of cards
and it just keeps falling down. It doesn’t matter if it’s cholesterol,
sugar or carbohydrate, it’s fat, or healthy fats
or polyunsaturated oils. Unfortunately everything I press
is falling down. And so in my textbooks
I’ve come to question. You know, Harrison’s principles
of medicine. I remember my father giving it to me
on my 18th birthday. Actually it was 18 plus one day because he
said he could give it to me on my birthday because I was completely drunk. And he gave it to me the following morning. I can still remember him out
in the back porch. He said, “Here’s your birthday cards
next to the definition of alcohol.” I can still remember that… Very funny. I mean that’s our go-to book. And the editors of Harrison’s last year
were paid over US $11 million and declared
by the pharmaceutical industry. Oh, that’s so depressing to hear. I don’t mind you being paid but put it
across the front cover of Harrison’s; this has been influenced
by the pharmaceutical industry to the tune of $11 million. Just put it across there. And then I will know…
I will know what hat you are wearing. On the one hand it’s so depressing
to hear that influence runs so deep and on get a hand it’s great to have
voices like yours and Belinda’s opening our eyes to that influence and
giving us the permission to question, because that’s what we need. So I want to thank you for all
the information you’re putting out there and although I’m sorry for the struggles
you had to go through, I’m glad it was you because you are the right person to come
through that and become the spokesman to teachers, to open our eyes
and ask these questions. So it’s remarkable what you are doing to try
and help educate people on the right way and help them educate themselves. So if people want to hear more about you and read more about what you’ve written
and what you’ve done, where can we direct them to go? I think the best site at this point in time
is one that Belinda set up called I know it sounds corny
but that’s why she set it up. Because I was under investigation
and being hammered by the system. And therefore her research and a lot of this
stuff is on I am on Twitter, Belinda is on Twitter,
we’re still on Facebook… That’s Belinda Fettke no fructose that was
changed from Gary Fettke no fructose in the midst of all
the medical board investigations. And they said, “You can’t talk about this.” So we literally just drew a line through Gary
and wrote Belinda. Because they cannot silence her. And I’ve now have been cleared
to start talking about this stuff again. I don’t think anybody wants me
talking about it apart from the patients in the community. Only the people who want to get better. Right, we’re still out there. Thank you Gary,
I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you, Bret.


  1. Great talk. No different from the vaccine pushing industry. Science bought and paid for by big pharma. After the Flexnor report hundred of naturopathic colleges and herbalists put out of business. Everywhere you go it’s all about the money. Look at glyphosate as well. I’m very concerned about my grandchildren’s future.

  2. Love your work Dr. Bret Scher – professional and objective – continue to educate people 🙂

  3. Wow. Thank you for this interview. My eyes were open but now they are really open!

  4. Thank you for sharing this very important information with us all. I saw an interview with Dr Gary & Belinda Fettke with Ivor Cummins, it was equally as eye opening as this podcast. Yes I've seen WALL-E, & it's a must see film. Thanks again, & take care to. ❤🙂🐶

  5. On my very low carb (well under 20 grams) diet, I am off all the nsaids. I do have the orthovisc shots every 6 months. My left knee is a 4 on a scale of one to four for replacement, the right knee is a 3. I have NO PAIN. In the hospital, they are required to have 45 grams of carb per meal. It is the same at rehab. Unless I can make sure my
    friends and family bring food to me I am up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

  6. Every one should share this –

  7. Great podcast only downside is that it's only 55 mins long 😀 Can anyone recommend more information about weight loss stall on LCHF?

  8. You won’t find this kind of stuff in your high school history nor health books. Got a real education here today.

  9. Great podcast

  10. Yes, we have to question because of Zero Population…*they want us sick & dead! Thank you both for speaking up…it took a lot of courage! God bless you!

  11. Couldn't hear it.

  12. Thank you for this valuable information.

  13. "We are going to have a massive change in health….it's going to be messy"

    80% of American adults are metabolically unhealthy.  

    The future is NOW.

  14. 46:30 Flexner Report.

  15. Just had a neck surgery, last september, Type 1 Diabetic, lchf 10:yrs and keto, One day after surgery they sent me home, 4 hours in a bus, i 've not taken any drugs or painkillers since the day of surgery. I'm just in no pain what so ever. They put a small stellcage between vertebrae C6-C7, and they released the rootnerve at C7. I recover faster than i don't know what….and the only thing i can think of is the food i eat. No pain, no painkillers and steady diabetes no highs, no lows

  16. Another excellent interview. I've heard Gary and his wife Belinda speak many times and I'm still shocked at how uncaring the health care system reallyl is. I am glad to have found keto/low carb. No more worring about developing diabetes (i was prediabetic). I am hopeful that my brain is getting all the healthy nutrient dense fatty foods it needs to avoid early dementia which runs in my family. Diet Doctor keep doing what you are doing. Things must change. Real food = a healthy metabolism

  17. Fascinating and very disturbing at the same time, thank you!

  18. The more I hear about the SDA the more I am beginning to think they are actually a death cult, who want to kill the planet by turning it into a dustbowl.

  19. This is most disturbing interview I have ever seen!

  20. I have so much gratitude for people like Gary and Belinda, and also for Tim Noakes.

  21. You look and sound like Benedict Cumberbatch 😊

  22. Wow that’s deep 😳

  23. Many a great scientist has been silenced for speaking the TRUTH! Well done Gary!

  24. I like Gary I like his interviews I think hes right on point but I really wish he would have he said the word salvation probably 20 times I while they beliefs of the the 7th day Adventist may be based on that they don't push that with their dietary guidelines and their dietary recommendations to say at once that's that that that's what it's based on that's fine but please don't keep bringing that up over and over and over again when really it's based on it but it's certainly not taught now that you know to have good health you must whatever all they're saying now is to have good health you must eat this way who cares why they think it anymore.

  25. A brave doctor who is actually helping. Keep up the good work 👍

  26. Scary stuff.

  27. Obviously Dr. Fettke speaks the whole truth and nothing but the truth! Even my 19 yr old daughter believes being a vegan is the only humane way of eating. People are being brainwashed! And it all goes back to these huge processed food companies pushing wheat, sugar and alternative protein sources. Let‘s band together to stop this madness! Spread the word and believe the science 🤓

  28. Nobody thinks processed sugar is a health food, and the scientific record doesn't suggest a meat based diet is healthful either…

  29. Found this in google, the people who wrote discussion paper are seventh day Adventist’s and feel it could be taken further

  30. Thank you for exposing all those pious 7day Adventist’s and greedy self serving businesses at our expense! As you say, question everything. Even Buddha said,” Don’t believe me,question everything” Great to hear you with your courageous honesty!

  31. Saving people is very profitable, they almost kill you, then they send you to gym, if it dont work, go to pharmacy and take a pill untill you wait your surgery.
    If the government sets an guideline, everything the government gives must follow it, school food, hospital food, aid food sent to africans. Whoever sell this food makes a lot of money, so much they can fund harvard nutritionists.

  32. I follow a whole food plant based diet. So no refined sugar and refined carbs. So it’s agreeing with Fettke. His was the first material I read. Theres a lot of confusion with vegans who eat processed and sugar laden foods and vegans who are also whole food plant based. Meat is known to contain antibiotics and growth hormones and milk too which is just an awful food for humans to eat. Most of the planet is lactose intolerant and wheat intolerant.
    What I’m saying is : it’s not a war of vegans against carnivores it’s a war against sales and marketing, governments and money makers. Don’t label yourself as a vegan or a carnivore and look at the science. is Dr Gregers website and he looks at the science. He follows a whole food plant based diet. To me he makes sense. So does the Fat Emperor. He’s a carnivor. But my choice is no meat. What everyone is agreeing on though is NO refined sugar and refined carbs so get on it!

  33. REAL FOOD, EAT IT!!!!!

  34. Who apart from the cereal industry is promoting cereal ? I’m a vegan and I’m not. Most Doctors and scientists who advocate a whole food plant based diet DO NOT advocate eating sugar laden cereals as it’s not a real food. Dr Fettke is a bit confused in connecting all these religious ideologies and wheat to Veganism. I am the biggest atheist and anti sugar and cereal advocate. The beef industry is the biggest cause of climate change Dr Fettke. This is a fact.
    You have some very valid points but you are a bit confused with pigeon holing people. You are right about we need to get rid of cereals sugar and coke and religion.
    Don’t connect all vegans to religion. Check out Humane Hancock and nutritionfacts org.


  36. Why would the grains and soy industries go up against the meat industry. The meat industry is their biggest customers. That's the biggest problem all this food goes to feeding your steaks and bacon. While in other poor countries 16,000 kids dying every day. When you think about it our greed in rich countries is horrible, people only care about themselves. It is kinda biblical of the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Interpretation of that story is actually about nations not two people. Vegan are pushy no doubt but with good reason. We greedily destroy everything from the meat industry from our planet to the lives of innocent animals to our longevity and vegans understand that. Maybe veganism isn't the answer, but people need to reduce meat consumption at least in half of what they are now. Then we can properly farm livestock and properly look after our health and our children's future.

  37. Show us the stats Dr Fettke. Do you not understand that mass produced meat is harming the planet ? You have a bone of contention with these religious zealots. I think you got into trouble because you are talking nonsense. I’m on a whole food plant based diet and I have in no way been influenced by religion as I’m an atheist. I’m anti sugar and anti wheat and anti religion. Why have you associated and added on the issue of sugar and wheat to the vegans and religion?
    Since when did any doctor know about nutrition? Yes you are correct in questioning everything. Cholesterol is a mystery to doctors and it’s something we are still learning about and not focussing so much on.
    In a nut shell Don’t eat refined carbs and refined sugar. Eat whole food and organic if you can afford it. Don’t eat animal products.

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