CORC for you: Having an honest conversation about mental health treatment



oh my life it's my final and sleepy but we'll join in a second language helps oh we got one person okay tell us if it's working and if you can hear us all right in Japanese because the noise the street sweeper outside so just be aware them certain people being redirected from the other side with technical difficulties it's amazing the room yes yeah one time okay let's make people X okay can you comment in the chat box if you can see us all right and it's all bit and then we'll do proper introductions yeah oh hello it's tabby here we are technical clearly technical people he couldn't understand these things oh cool we've got yes as well good right shall we good okay so welcome to our live chat this is a new thing for us so bear with I guess you can all kind of join in on this little experiment we're doing because we're to be I was about saying we're scientists I'm not a scientist you are scientists or with all potential scientists that we wanted very nicely worded and please do keep commenting as you keep commenting as you go along and you know if we basically want this to be a discussion rather than kind of us soé talking so any thoughts you have any questions etc please right okay should we introduce ourselves just should I start this please okay so I am Beth I am a director of cork which is why I am here and whether we've been thinking about cork his involvement and outside of that I run a piss-poor charity called hearts and minds Oh Anna got Leanne oh yeah I joined our caucus yes so cool is a mental health research organisation which looks mainly I think at what works in in supporting and helping young people who have mental health problems and yet so what works and how can we tell if something's working as well and I guess thinking about what better looks like as well yes and trying to use information from daily life to help inform what we can do to make to my drama class yeah so I'm another director of Cork I'm around around walpert and I also worked in academic at a university and in their charity yeah although I'm Miranda and so yeah that's us and that is cool and I guess a bit of information about why we wanted to do this a while ago I became a board member on that I don't know it must be about six months six months ago so they've been trapped with me since then and I guess the main question that kind of seemed to come up was people saying would young people be interested in the world oh I can hear myself that's very disconcerting I mean so which young people be interested in the work that cork do and I think previously thought probably not this is a lot of stuff to do with data and measurements and things like that and I said no actually there are a lot of young people out there who would be interested in this kind of thing and in understanding all the like interesting stuff that you guys think about behind the scenes and when thinking about how services are done what treatments are provided how however you work out when treatments are ending and all these questions like that and so since then we've been just interrupt me at any point since then we've been thinking about how to do that and this was kind of the first step of saying well let's talk to people yeah the answer saying she agrees that's definitely an interesting and what about others in terms of mental health research and feel free during this conversation as well just of post different questions that you find interesting again a particularly focusing around I guess what we can do to when thinking about how to support young people and people experiencing mental health problems yes I mean I guess right from the start Corp has always been interested in making the world a better place for young people with mental health problems and try to use evidence to transform services and sorts of support so that young people achieve the goals are important to them but I guess we've got into a mindset where we'd always work with people in professional services or researchers and we thought it was through them that we were going to help young people said we were likely to a second-rate worker and I think Brett really traveling widely working directly with young people but also trying to say well all your language is completely wrong for young people we think about the 12 different people so this is our first attempt to really energy towards thinking well how can we involve young people in the things we're interested in how can we do things that they're interested in but still keep the rigor of what we're trying to achieve yeah and keep our focus on so we're not an organisation that tells people what to do we're not normalization to provide services we're an organization that helps other people collect and use evidence to inform the weight of managing their cars problems yeah I think quarks there too to figure this stuff out so that people who are and services who are providing treatments already have that information yes so jess is saying I think not only the opinions are going to go young people but perhaps have aged out and had experiences mental health services at that time definitely so like I don't know if you feel this as well just but like I found that I have certain views when using services that I still think are really important but I'm also now on reflection learn things as well so I think young adults have a big part to play in it as well I agree and I think that what you put your finger on is probably one of the most interesting research expressions that we haven't really looked at properly yet which is how to retrofit back from what works to try to understand why it worked and how it worked for the people and individuals so there's a big movement across MIT's and the healthcare company about sort of personalized medicine I would just edgy towards thinking about that in mental health settings and I guess from my point of view we're increasing thinking it's not just about what helped you in terms of the service but also what helps you in terms of other things you were doing in your life there we're very well the service might be one part there may be all sorts of things that friends family yourself we're doing the community and we want to know all of that from a perspective of having been through that process looking back and trying to understand why did it work so we can help yeah other young people and think about who it works for who doesn't work for yeah and I think as well it's I don't know I definitely feel like this like this might be something that people agree or disagree with but a lot of the conversation around mental health at the moment is around awareness which is brilliant and that absolutely needs to happen but I think getting involved with cork is absolutely something where you can you get a chance to think about those deeper level kind of things where it's like okay even if we do have awareness now when the other person is experiencing different struggles and problems how can anyone actually help how can they help themselves and but equally how do we know that's helping so I know that for me there's been certain moments when I've suddenly been like oh wow like doing a lot better but it would have been really helpful to know that along during my journey so that like I could have had that encouragement of like now even though things are really crazy and lost right now they are improving and I think just this point here about when you're in the center of a crisis really hard to be objective or even to see how things are and one of the things that cooks a bit very focused on is helping people monitor change over time because when you've been very low or find things very difficult and things are going slightly better it's hard to remember how bad it felt before which is still pretty rubbish so it's quite useful to know about gosh I really felt much less then yeah and I guess one of the sort of big full of self questions that I know are I spent quite the wait I'm thinking about now I'm really seen other people's views it's should we think about staying enhance put like depression should we think about that something that's a chronic problem that was managing flats one's life should we think about it's a relaxed readmitting problem that comes and goes or should we think about something is completely curable that you should have it you get cure from it and it's gone mmm yeah and I think again that's something that ties into the a–when stuff so a lot of the awareness conversation is it tends to be around quite low level mental health problems which again is absolutely needed but I think there's also the reality that a lot of us with different problems also kind of feel like you know I I don't necessarily want to be cured at this stage I just want to kind of be able to manage things and yeah I agree with yeah I agree with you agree with me just like it is really important to have that encouragement and so one of the things court looks at again is when you're doing something like a therapy I don't know if any of you remember being given forms where you are asked a rape for example how often you've felt positive when you felt hopeful or how often you've felt really overwhelmed and sad but then often whenever showing those forms again or there's just a random number and so one of the things my anger and the whole court team look case how could we use something like that so that young people actually see and get answers their progress as well and I think going on to your point about we need services to meet the needs of those who Menil yeah I guess part of what we're interested in in terms of research agenda which and you join us in this how do we know if the services meeting the needs yeah so one of the difficulties we've got is we've got real life going on with all its massive reality and we know that people might have problems and then they might get less problems they might get worse what we don't know is what causes them to get worse so if we just say you come into a service and then you get better how do we know it's the service that has helped how do we know they wouldn't be got even better than haven't been seen by the service so how do we know one service is better than another unless we have some metrics think about that and I suppose that's what we're very unmet when you say measure it what do you mean I guess some measure some ways of measuring yeah some ways some common way of measuring that yeah and I think your your point about young people having a copy of everything and transparency is really crucial so trying to share that that thinking behind why we're measuring these things and what we doing with those measures is really important yeah but also thinking about what like my was saying like in terms of the services need to meet a lot of the talk at the moment is about funding which absolutely like I will be there with the pickets I'm all about but it's also thinking about are we funding services that work but not just services like are we funding project use projects are we funding school support are we funding all of these things are we are we funding the most effective things I guess is important as well completely and I think Maya's comment about holistic non-medical approach is being under-researched undervalued there aren't there definitely under research I think it's an open question about whether they're undervalued because until we do the research we don't know whether they help or not so I think we need to be careful that we don't apply different spans as different sorts of things so we don't say that they're all brilliant and just because they haven't been researchers they're all fantastic they may be but we need the research mmm Beth what's been your personal experiences with outcome measures outside of court it's sometimes really hard to be transparent on your outcome for as you have to fill it in the room with your therapist that is so true it's so true or like they say well you could you could fill in this complaint form over here where I'm sitting and I think yeah that's that kind of thing can be really tricky but I also think there's a bigger picture here which is I guess at the moment we're using forms and stuff like that to measure whether these things are but they can also they can also be part of a discussion and part of the therapy and going back to some of the things some people have said one of the challenges that cork has that you know are you always talking about it's actually it's all really good having this research out there so for example there's a lot of research that says it's really helpful that any any measurement words that are there they're done in collaboration with young people with a conversation but then somehow you've got to translate that into the world so that some of what court does as well so they have things like our regional seminars which we've got some coming up I think in April which you're more than welcome to get involved with that's going to be all around kind of thinking about young people what measurements are meaningful to young people but those are events where professionals commissioners people who decide things about services can come learn from the research tell researchers what they need to know and it's a bit of that networking thing but it is it's really complicated isn't it it is complicated I don't think it's Jesse saying that she's think sometimes but ourselves are afraid of talk to young people about how they're doing mmm um I think I think there's all sorts of sort of ideas and worries about being straight with young people are alternative things I think there's a real wish not to take away hope to be positive it's it is I agree with you it's an issue and it's something I think that we need to be honest about that you know all the professionals under my care services really want to help no one is trying to do not help so it's trying to find the best ways of doing that and also managing I guess the other side of getting perhaps if people want to get involved with cork and the stuff we do is the reality behind the scenes is that that professional will be having all sorts of emotions too so for example I know as someone in our works are down people as well as is a young person who has their experience it's really difficult to have that conversation with someone where where I say I'm not sure if this is helping can we talk about it so you're worried about that person's reaction you're worried how they feel you're worried how you feel and so the reason we want people to get involved in this kind of stuff and when I say people I'm talking more about you guys and young people that don't is because this dialogue is so important and it's the most effective way to do things that it's only an insane I was asked recently whether I thought it'd be useful to know the success rate of therapies before I stated it I don't know that's a really good question it'd be really useful what do people feel about that would you like to know how say you're offered a certain therapy or you're offered a range of different therapies would you like to know the evidence around how effective they are or do you think it could affect whether you'd engage with it and give it a chance in the first place well it's interesting so so from our research safe safe for someone coming with depression into a services the best service in England of currently about 50% of the time there's not going to be measurable improvement by the measurable means so much improvement on their scores that we can be pretty sure it isn't just to do with measurement error so if you would that fact be useful to know and so and I think my right depends on the quality of the evidence and we know that's poor quality evidence so is it good to say therefore based on our poor quality evidence this is what we think we think about half of people will show measurable change and that would be and I guess what we do so in court we've a better new acronym which is far straighter flawed uncertain proximate fast and all the data that we get around this is fraud but the question is if you didn't if you think exactly as you're saying a whisper get that that we know that suti only works for half the people isn't it better but we know that sort of the rate and there may be other things other people do but nothing works for everything there's nothing else in the health service that we think should work for everything yeah I guess the general difficulty that we have at the moment is that there is there are so many different kinds of treatments and different ways within a kind of mental health specialist setting and outside of that that can help the person's mental health but obviously sometimes at the moment in service settings it's really limited as to what is funded so you know if you if your only choice is one thing do you want to hear their not-so-good stuff about that one one thing or is it just to stay hopeful because some people are saying yes they would like to and but I guess if I think about me there were certain points when I thought I thought the problem was me because like I was told such positive things about this therapy and it just wasn't clicking for me and it was really relieving to actually realize that actually maybe it was the fact that this wasn't the way this was set up for this kind of treatment it doesn't work some people in that so Katie and I think the reverent was saying that may be different for different people you know that's actually right we just don't know yet and that's exactly the research we want to do that's exactly we're trying to find out what works for who in what context is someone else the same automatic context yeah and collect the information that context is really important our difficulty is collecting information is difficult and you only work out information to collect that most book that's difficult because no one likes filling in forms so we have to sort of balance once it's no information of everything someone's life with what we can realistically collect so really interesting to know for me what you think of the key things we should collect what the key things we want to learn mmm and say for example one person I was talking to the other day it's in how do I know if I'm better because sometimes I go out more but then I do less so maybe I'll go out and sit in a coffee shop but I'm still not enjoying things whereas other times I be isolated myself a lot more but actually feeling a lot more hopeful so the two things you could measure there I like someone's active about activity and like I'll be doing more and they're getting more in they're involved in in livestand society and blah blah blah and or it's it there is it you know what do we think about their mood and so there's lots of different things like that and so I guess you know the general truths that getting getting involved is something like cork is seeing the reality that thinking about these things is it's difficult but it's also challenging my thinking quite an exciting way well yeah you discuss oh yeah I'm fine I can't stand what anyone would want spend their life 50 about these things but there may be this strange old person who just wants their time you know if I have a true and I guess just going back to the issue of it someone said can't me get away from Falls if there was a word deal with that freshness I would leap at it give up sides in it give us I guess if you're absolutely and part of the problem with quality research which I actually believe in it's hard to generalize up to a bigger group to service because so does explain a bit so quality research involved sort of asking people so that's an authentic but intuitive the subtle nuances are personal things those looking to get from quadriceps are really getting the detail of what it means for an individual and how they see things so exactly what you just described yeah it's a very rich description how you then would catch about over hundreds of thousands or millions of people so you could sort of make ground states about on the whole this works with this sort of personal battle person means using more sort of standardized quantitive yes and so that's that's a real challenge to get those things two things together yeah yeah so it's interesting actually like running a small thing and saying you know for me like well I know it works because I talk to people and they can tell me but actually when we're thinking about something like the NHS like how crucial is it that what we're funding works and you know that it there is research behind it and all of that stuff but that information is really difficult to get on a wife it together and the most of all cork does is a mixture of positive so you're always trying to balance the depth and richness of qualitative information with the sort of surface but large data set of quantitative information so yes exactly Greek mixed methods yeah most of that went over my head but the data certain things so mixed so I guess it's trying to use information that's rich and deep and personally relevant yeah with information that's less rich in deep but but just as with everyone that is the variety of the variety of different information I'm trying to pull those together to try and get some understanding but going back to it I think it's – OH – you're shocked by how little quality the information was the context we're in is it's going to be flawed data it's not going to be great strong quality so you're going to be the left time to make judgment calls and I guess what be breaking on pioneering is how do we make those judgment calls when we have to make real decisions about real people's lives with real time with all this mess of data around yeah yeah that's exactly it Leanne like she said I guess it's hard because full can be standardized but recovery as personal yeah yeah but how do we make sure that as many people as possible are supported in a way that they can recover and both in terms of what they do outside of any treatment and within a treatment mindset what young people's perception of what quality of life is is an interesting topic yeah so I guess it would be interesting to know from people when you think about the word recovery what do you think about what what does recovery means you does it mean feeling better in terms of your mood does it mean being able to get back into the salon at school no you so I've got up my cat one of my wonderful new students apparel in Craster's doing a PhD looking at exactly this interview and young people and professionals to say what outcomes are important to you and try to think about she's doing a mixed method the game positive more positive I've trying to understand that and what's emerging from that is it's really different people yeah and you know so so that was PhD student colonel and she came to hearts and mine so that's a pizza peer support program and people one of the things that convinced me that young people so many people would be interested in this as people found that task really enjoyable and interesting I found it really enjoyable and interesting I learn about myself doing it so some people are saying recovery was able to do the normal routine definitely I think being able to get on with your life as how you want to do it is really important well though but equally I know that there's lots of people who sometimes are able to do all their normal stuff that feel miserable so okay so it's so recovery for that one person is not necessarily feeling better but able to manage but then someone else's that feeling hopeful and I think I finished it all this so in cope we've divided these this is what we call domains and outcome so it could be about how you function the world could be about how you feel about the world that can be about how hopeful you feel it can be about your relationships so all of these are different areas that we try and encourage people to look at the full range and we know that they might not so you might be feeling hopeful but actually having quite difficult times or you might be feeling very unhelpful I actually have no symptoms at all so these things are not all equivalent yes yes teething you're potentially yes so at the moment we're just talking about what is what does recovery mean so to be in a place where you feel able to achieve your potential and that's it isn't it whatever your potential is but still how do you get that and so when I think about recovery I think of being more like whatever it appears you're better is your mark I like using yeah but yeah I get completely what you mean hell okay and these are really helpful and I think in a microcosm these comments are exactly the issues we spend a lot of time to think about so if you're interested in joining us and thinking about what does recovery how do you make it capture enough for a whole range different people so that we can learn as a community that's it join us yeah there's this discussion and there are different ways you join us I'm just trying to remind myself you could join up called Network and I think the teachers were down below and you could also come to our regional seminars and you can keep on having this discussion yeah and so we're hopefully going to be having more live chats like this but it's also a case of like slowly through these and through other things we're doing we'll be doing and actually talking to like a bunch of different young people about what kind of ways that you'd like to be involved in the stuff did you have another thing yeah and what I really want really excited like many people's views of this yeah so recovery I think is a concept this has become more common as a term in mental health but I really actually some of the other times that we don't use in relation to themselves I was at a conference the other week and what someone asks from the floor they said they talked about wound healing and they said they talk about natural repair and new TV and we don't talk about repairing from health and he was saying maybe that's a concept we would apply to mental health so I'm really interested people think about the other concepts like repair or cure okay we didn't talk about cure mental health are those concepts of resonating with people should we be thinking about those separately or in addition to recovery hmm and I think that's one of the the things that we've been you mentioned earlier as well like how how do we manage when collecting information and trying to work out on a wide level what helps and what doesn't how do we manage the fact that some people want to completely get better from the mental health problem and that's a reality for me to them all the fact that as some people mentioned in the comment recovery – that means being able to manage with them ends will help them and get on with the things they want to do in their life so how do you manage those things when trying to work out on a national or international scale and level how do you work out whether that's happening in a in a forum or in any other way try to get this information I feel recovery needs to be about hello Laura I feel like recovery needs to be about achieving what you want to not necessarily being well yes so how do you create this standardized thing where once you get to this point we know that you've definitely improved at least a bit without making this false concept of what professionals think well should be it's really really interested in finding the whisper key they said that they thought understand it was important for me and what I remember carers are socially some people think that's very important and other people that's not meaning they want 39 H and now I'm really interested in that in the rappelling because I don't also wonder whether if mental health always in the mind so I'd be thinking about this body mats where you feel anxiety depression like your stomach or in your arms or your fingers and I think sometimes we get very focused on so in here yeah and I do wonder whether the repair might be other words yeah and I think often if we think about this is also where so one of the things courts been doing recently is thinking so specialist services are really important but what else happens outside of that because there's a whole life outside of that as well and one of the things that happens from that is specialist services usually help you get to the place where you are safe and you can manage just about but then I know for me there's been a whole lot of work I've had to do since then about okay now I've got to actually think about all of this stuff and work out why that might have happened or will work out where I go from here and that kind of makes me think about that repairing your life thing because it's one thing getting to a point where you just can survive it's another thing being right okay where do I go from yeah there's also an interesting thing I think new she's saying here about for her she feels that she'll never be the person she was she always be her because of her Elson experience and I know that one of the things that we've been told in the past is that people that say that although they might not necessarily Osen this path there are positives that they love that they've become a different sort of person and I think that's that's also something to be thought about that the new that emerges is it different yep yeah it's crazy to think well if I think about myself students be fun people but like how my life has changed and how I would have never have expected to be where I am but equally the things I've gained from that so Maya said goal-setting led by the young person could be a really powerful way and so that's really interesting because that is one of the big ways that Kotler looks like in terms of measuring progress so if there aren't set you know I feel hopeful about my future I feel recovered also these step things that you can measure recovery or feeling better by then maybe you can measure these things by a young person setting their own goal and then seeing how far they gets on that and there's an or to this issue but if you go to understanding so we've got quite a lot because in their approach to fantastic it's also just saying that they don't know whisper kids saying that understanding was from the individual's point of view but also it's quite easy to see if other people can understand them as well yeah and we've also got a comment about yeah so addressing the facts that actually for a lot of people not everyone but for a lot of people mental health problems comes out of difficult experiences or things like struggling financially or struggling with your environment and your setting and mental health services at the moment almost have to dismiss that because their focus is on mentally getting this person better but that's not really an accurate it seems like that what came – I might only when we talk about what young people want I remember research that your mind yet must've been another 10 or 12 years ago and same especially gets done with a piece of every few years where the asking people what would you like mental health what does it look like g2b mentality and one of the things that came out there was being financially independent being in charge of finances yeah and I'm always struck when I see them this that come out that always gets dropped off and actually it may or may not be important now these young people but there are certain things I the discourse around this that get taken up yeah and all the things that get sort of sidelined is not really sort of specific and I'm like oh yeah and my perspective would be those things are dropped because services don't feel they have any control over then those sorts of things we so a service can't help you with your financial situation the way we do services at the moment but actually that doesn't make it any less important so that shouldn't just be dismissed and the house service is experimenting with that yeah dimension yeah and actually that's one of the benefits of that I found of getting involved with work like this you see the places that are trying innovative different things that have completely changed my view of what is possible agreed like recovering from austerity I think a lot of people would agree with you and I think Laura talking about easing stronger communities I think this was I think was the whisper kids saying that for them the therapeutic relationship was actually central I think there are some interesting researchers there's a wonderful word our master who talks about ordinary magic and the magic of relationships in our daily lives and how those are so crucial to us now something make it there opee some people may get them from other relationships but I agree building communities is like to be really crucial and thinking about the political things not addressed I think yeah and I guess it's again really tricky so again one of the conversations that people think about when thinking about services is like should therapists bring up things like how difficult funding is in the therapy given that it's completely limiting their choice and it's affecting the treatment and but actually with that just a press young person and be too much too much information but actually I know that for me as participation and then campaigning and now getting into what I do for work was I think if not bigger for my recovery and learning that actually there was a system that was quite broken rather than me necessarily being broken was huge for me and yeah as big as any kind of model of or anything like that so again I guess this is an opportunity of us saying cork has quite a lot of influence with this it's kind of stuff it would be great to have people on board and involved in making and thinking about these things and making a difference yeah as equally as important yeah participation was Keith me too I think one of the weird things about researching mental health is there such a dimension between being depressed as a sort of aberration from normal and I mean that have been as like something that's wrong with some part of you that women you shouldn't be normal and abnormal symptom and being depressed or sad because that's something depressing is happening or that that's an appropriate response to your environment yeah there's quite hard to way those those things up yes what was what was the real I don't know if you can think of it now but there's research to show that actually therapists have to be unusually positive yes so they were like I don't know match possible but slightly therapists the more hopeful therapist is the better therapy but this also research available from social psychologists so if I've got this long someone can tell me but they had it a social second experiment but they have people that were depressed and interaction with strangers who were actually people's past experiment and people who were not distressed and forth exchanges and they are supposed to depress the non capacity of how did you come across an oppressed group much like unit so one of the ideas is that those of us who are not particular I've got this sort of self-fulfilling halos actually I come across great yeah and so loosely I here we you're saying about the thing of you felt like services focused on on your ill health and your illness rather than thinking about you as a whole person and one of the things I think again call tries to look at so one of the things you were explained to me the other day as a difference between a well-being measure and a mental health measure and the fact that at the moment those are separate things as we've seen mental health still as this separate thing that once you get to a certain point you are unwell rather than this continuous spectrum and so it's thinking again about how do we incorporate all of these things how do we have services that can see people as a whole and I'd be able to meet to measure that because although measuring things I think consume irritating equally if we're thinking about politics it what you know it wasn't too long ago that you know being but you know conversion therapy existed so thinking about why we need evidence those kind of situations are why we need evidence and to make sure the therapy and the treatment is actually helpful rather than anything else um what we've got kind of a bit longer now we've thought about particularly around kind of should the focus always be on recovery from mental illness what does recovery and just just to take out no response I think early evidence as well there is this balance between not overwhelm they're kind of you have these difficult conversations and one of the things that comes up interesting is we perhaps we need I know that this joint training or or because the professionals aren't renting it young people another massive trend how do we have these conversations in a way that's still containing and helpful so I guess that's something we're again if you're interested in joining us in some some job training or workshops around this because this is new for all of us that would be great yeah and and again I think the problem is that I'll often as a young person I think I'm better at it now but like going to going to professionals and said look I didn't get this I didn't get this you didn't do this for me and felt really good but well a reasonably angry but equally they didn't know what to do in that situation so again thinking about getting involved in caulk and these kinds of conversations is yes funding is important yes awareness is important but with those things how do we do this stuff like how do we do it so it's really debating mental health to help us and yeah so look at the quality is the best therapy and how do you create that feeling of equality in a service where you know you have to go into a store and you've you notice people with uniforms or or I guess there's we know lots of research about how you create a good relationship in a in therapy or in and other thing like that but then how do you translate that one actually times itself in a certain way and scores herself in a certain way so it's it's again I'm thinking about the research and how you translate that into the real world agreed so what it would be good to hear from a few people now I guess is what I just do as individuals we will be asking lots of people this water I can give you that yeah yes alright so as for you guys how would you like to be involved within mental health research would you like to learn how to measure these things would you literally like to be involved in learning and analysis and data collection and all these things that are very quite interesting so what do you know ferried involves many thing is a spectrum I do not ever want to be a mental health research at can't some why not but not everyone does certainly Teleco yes and so the question is how do we engage people because if you don't involve the technical detail it's quite hard to get to really have control over what happens yeah so and if I'm holding the type of detail and for hours and I some people train decades to get good at it so is how do we get that balance between involving but not overwhelming people with the technical stuff yeah because often I think when it comes to research because of that technical stuff is is the massive part of it often when it comes to involving young people that's the point at which they're involved is too late to make any meaningful difference yeah so instead we're saying getting involved with cork will be different I guess from the standard getting involved in the mental health campaign in general because it will be thinking about what the deeper things and there are more complex but Lucy is saying she'd be really interested involving research because it's empowering and she likes the process and understanding that so and I guess in terms of making it less technical more accessible probably not I don't want to be honest about that because I think I think in some ways we can try and make it as accessible as possible but it does involve a certain level of being prepared to go to the tediousness but I think this is the thing and again I think it's good to have this conversation here is like there's different levels of involvement and it's important to have that variety so it's still important for example to have done all the detailed stuff and then take it and they'll only yogamaya is the big picture person that empowers and coach job yes I am similar and I guess partly what we need the big picture people to understand is sometimes the decisions that are made there's not technical things I'm not because we're just stupid but because that was the only way of doing it technically so I guess I was trying to get those two bits together but because sometimes I think as I came late to a search and I thought that if y'all see my they'll send me stupid questions or stupid forms and then when I discover actually they came on that because it's complicated actually it's no easier way of doing it that now I get to a bit footage with some as this might lead us a lot some detail conversation I think that one that will give you the information you need so it's trying to get that conversation between the big picture and the challenge and the technical people and if we can get that right we get creative yeaji but that's why I don't think that's even just use involvement these things in general and other 39 am completely – so I guess what we're acknowledging is that actually usually young people with these things have gotten in at the end to do things like dissemination and to tell their story and seeing where these things important and we still want that so we still want to have young people involved in that we still want the bigger picture young people and to kind of shape these things and make decisions at one level and we want the technical stuff so again it's about there's the right sales just my own and Laura for example so for example what Coke does for services is we produce a report for them that shows their outcomes compared to the outcomes of other services one thing if you're interested we might we could do we could actually have the next video tournament we could go to one this report and explain the technical details of how we've done it and how we interpret it because that's all been interpreted for non-technical people and we can explain all the logic behind it and those of you who are mathematicians apart will really enjoy it those of us who would not really try and explain it at least but I think that might be really nice to involve you you could tell us this doesn't make any sense well this yeah be really brilliant to get your viewpoints yes what I always say again it's an it's an upskilling thing when I came in so the first thing I remember saying when I came into court was like I hate the forum to get rid of them and now I'm like oh okay the forms can actually be useful it's just that my experiences with them whenever in they were never used in that in that way but for me even though I'm not a detailed technical person learning some of these things is interesting because it informs my bigger picture mind I still know that actually like you were saying or like what I find just kind of quite laborious and technical some people find fascinating and it is so it's that again I guess it's by versity isn't it reading this all sounds croaks oh I appreciate something you need to go and eat and a hook I like I agree with you that research could be quite a nice space we talk about these things it's a different sort of tenor of conversation about it it does and I think again for me the fact the thing I found around this area and this may just be me and you may join and then be like no Beth what you talking about but the thing I found is that the way things were presented to me in services and throughout my time kind of in that world I was always told things and so this is the right thing for you this is what you need to do all of this I came in here and my experience was the opposite people said what the research might say this but it might not who knows and it's incredibly humble and I think that can be very refreshing when you've been in a space where you're told things for so long so I think that is where this dialogue and the researcher can be really helpful in therapeutic but there probably would be a warning that it can also be a bit destabilizing because I said you know I've had people life is destabilizing so could you have technical young people interpret in a non patronizing way in an access voice yes well I think that's going to be here yes and so that is absolutely one of the things that Corp needs help on because you know I can say one thing about what a young person might understand someone else might say another thing and but it only takes getting a variety of opinions to get that kind of stuff right but I'd then also want to follow that up with that but I do think at the moment young people often use to disseminate research and to make it accessible and I think those are still great things but it is important to get them involved in the whole process of it as well and I guess just to be clear we are up for challenging ourselves to one of our values is that we challenge ourselves so if these measures we're using the wrong measures or indeed if the whole if there's a better way of doing it than forms we couldn't be more delighted to hear and discuss with you about ways we might do it so it isn't just you know we've done research and then you help everyone understand that it is actually that are we asking the right research questions in the right way collecting the information in the right way and then using it to a full change in the real world I'm still thinking about so we've got five minutes left I guess what it would be what what we'll do after this is post and we post an email address people think ends up with so we'll post a whole load of links of things you can get involved with but also an email address of a way to say look I you know I'm interested in this we may not kind of spend loads of stuff immediately because we're still working let's talk about it like we'll definitely contact you about about you getting involved and like that but I guess what it would be really helpful to on the live comments it's maybe just how people have found this and if there's anything particularly that it's made you think about just kind of I guess kind of general what you've taken away from this conversation because my gives you things that could have been better yeah any anything they're pretty helpful and I think because we you know as we said at the beginning this is an experiment which is us saying we are we are a professional organization that doesn't want to come up with a finely polished thing that says this is how we're going to involve young people instead we want to do it really transfer at me and say like we're not sure yet you tell us what you want okay so Laura is saying which is a far more engaging way of hosting chat than a regular Twitter chat yay good boot back down to the fabulous technical people also in this room of you who understand the YouTube especially we shouldn't lose that big thanks yeah all team we believe happily found fantastic it we've got I which will get and Martha and shown that all of whom of lean and fashionable we just been push that front becomes but they have a wild and if you follow it cooks Twitter you'll see all of these people's lovely faces in their own accounts just interesting goods have an actual fashion clothes and did you feel like it was equal did we fit do you feel like we were talking with the comments and after all of that met my really interesting and it's nice to see your faces nice to see your face yeah we must we need to get the faith yet but anyway lifting their pitches and it's really refreshing conversations have the to and fro I'm really that that was the that was the vibe that you've got my first ever YouTube chat mine Jhelum yeah yeah glad you guys are up for an open conversation I think we're almost distressing me up for that conversation sometimes it's like we need to get to a conclusion that's why the point in our in our lives I think this is a much better way of engaging with young people's you can question and habit answer yeah and you can equally asked as well we can ask a question and you can answer us you engage with each person brilliant Frankie just previously I've really enjoyed being part of this conversation I like the conversation factional right in a funny way I like the testing and internet and internet takeaway to untie information that is yeah that is true it's really difficult especially on writing it can take away the kind of emotion of it which could be a negative it can also be a positive which i think is what you're saying meet any more of these please yes hello Matt okay so what's your what's been your takeaway from this what are your feelings so I'm a complete convert now I want to have many more of these because it's so fantastic be able to ask you questions that I'm curious by hearing people's responses and I guess I'm really interested in think if we can bring a court report next time to get people's views on that yes whether it's through this means or another means yeah really good have a deal or two I'm really pleased I'm really tired we've had so many it's we were predicting but yeah my feelings are I've really enjoyed it I've actually really I've been I'm wearing how to button this has been thanks and thank you for coming in from but it's definitely cheered me up and yeah it's just been really good to hear so many people's thoughts and I think though it's definitely value in having light at some point and meet up where people can see that this makes it so so much easier or we've been complimented very impressed by your ability to read comments and say intelligence in them and achieve the professor but I haven't had any training for this I suppose it's making me all this positive feedback to make me nervous as a research I know there must be some negative feedback out there lurking and I'm trying to encourage you to share it because and maybe now's not the time able still in the sort of loving stage but but generally you know I think a bit like we want in thirdly we want to encourage the people comfortable to actually yeah didn't quite get it for me or didn't quite we're being told the time is up yes right nice to see you enjoy your evenings look at the links and email the emails and how to reach us somewhat if you would like to all of these that they're the only if we've been really critical the only that it's a lack of subtitles absolutely accessibility wise that's really important but yeah live I don't know how that would work but we should look into it so thank you for that and we will see you next time bye bye with ignorant it came up maybe one neck synthesis in entirely accessible net where we want the people without internet that as well as I escaped for your very constructive comment about the lack of tea and cake yes but stewards you – good evening anyway we would well I didn't say that okay I think we're good evening into negative um generally for the people around accessibility if you've got ideas as to what we could do to because we can do this and we can do other things as well so if you have other ideas of what would be helpful for that let us know so for example without internet we could do phone calls with little conference calls so that's something to be thought about yes you'd like Katie well we can all dream yeah exactly semi serious suggestion was well it's up stuff like subtitle software we look at okay and for the Kate we could agree next time yes and we're just about to go amazing first go yes the bitches can get life yeah yeah

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